Read Is Caste Only a Hindu Problem? PART 1
Read PART 2 of Is Caste only a Hindu Problem?
Dr. O. P. Sudrania
In this monogram, I would venture to dwell on this caste malaise prevalent in the Sikhs, both in India as well as abroad. It is noteworthy that the origin of the Sikhism started with their Gurus from Nanak Saheb to the tenth Guru Gobind Singhji aka Gobind Rai.
Prof. Baldev Singh ‘Panthi’ has expressed it fairly well in his long researched essay in these words, “The issue of caste in Sikhism is quite complex, always inviting a diversity of impassioned opinions. One thing we can be certain about is that Guru Gobind Singh had abolished all caste inequality with the inception of Khalsa on 13 April, 1699 and with the institution of Khanday-Ki-Pahul or the Baptism of Sword. Faithful Sikhs do not practice caste discrimination but this is not to say that all Sikhs necessarily act in accordance to their faith. Consequently, the caste does exist in Sikhism, though in a diluted form than found in the rest of Indian society.
But at the outset one thing can be confidently stated which is that there is no clearly defined caste hierarchy in Sikh society, leave alone a vertically ordered one. Any layperson or author giving a clearly ordered Sikh caste hierarchy is himself mistaken or is purposefully misleading others.”
This statement is self contradicted by Baldev Singh himself in his same article. We shall refer to it later. As regards misleading is concerned, it is the same concern that has prompted me.
It is prudent to highlight the beginnings of Sikhs which is very relevant to this subject of much maligned curse of caste. There is an obvious overlap in the description but the astute readers will persevere to see the semblance in it with our topic of “Caste in Sikhism” dealt with later on.
Guru Nanakji (15 April 1469 – 22 September 1539) was the founder of the lineage or religion of Sikhism; was born in Hindu Khatri family of Bedi clan and the first of the ten Sikh Gurus. He preached equality of all humans including the women and irrespective of any societal discrimination.
When in the Middle East, the West and the rest of Asia – slavery, varna/class and race discrimination was rife and respect between the different classes and caste was at low ebb, Guru Nanak preached against discrimination and prejudices due to race, caste, status, etc. More at: http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Guru_Nanak
The tenth Guru was Gobind Singhji aka Gobind Rai who ultimately laid the foundation of “Khalsa Panth (the Granth and the Panth)” and had also declared that the Holy Book called “Guru Granth Sahib” will be their final Guru and guide from now on, i.e. after his departure; there will be no more human Guru. This is their ‘Panth’ i.e. the ‘path’ to follow.
The meaning of Khalsa translates to “Sovereign/Free”. Another interpretation is that of being ‘Pure’. The meaning of Khalsa translates to “Sovereign/Free”. Another interpretation is that of being ‘Pure’. A Sikh who has been initiated into the Khalsa is titled Singh (males) and Kaur (females) and commonly referred to as Amritdhari.
Sikhs believe that no matter what race, sex, or religion one is, all are equal in God’s eyes. Men and women are equal and share the same rights, and women can lead in prayers.
The traditions and philosophy of Sikhi were established by ten specific gurus from 1469 to 1708. Each guru added to and reinforced the message taught by the previous, resulting in the creation of the Sikh religion.
It is noteworthy that Guru Nanak was born in the era when the most cruel and barbaric Mughal invader Baaber aka Baabur was repeatedly inflicting his tyrannical atrocities to expand his empire in Indian subcontinent from present day Uzbekistan. Baabur also had a great passion to kill people, cut heads of people and create pillars out of cut head. He claimed to have created several such pillars in his autobiography. More at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babur
Sikhism and beginnings of Caste curse:
During those days in Asia as well as in Europe the local kings and rulers used to fight among themselves for most of the times on one or the other pretexts. This was also the case in the life time of the evolution of so called Sikhism in just less than a century and a half of the lives of their ten Gurus.
Prof. Baldev Singh ‘Panthi’ has written a long document elaborating extensively on the castes in Sikh society. Here are some extracts from his essay.
“…the Sixth Guru and his successors found that most of the Rajputs of their time were only interested in petty fights and intrigues and had all but abdicated their responsibilities as Kshatriyas. While they toadied up to the Mughal rulers to protect their petty fiefs, they not only did not defend the rank and file of the Hindu society but were often themselves engaged in the oppression of lower caste Hindus.
Having failed to get the desired response from Rajput rulers after prolonged diplomacy and persuasion, the tenth Guru finally decided to institute a new Order in which each initiated Sikh could play the role of all the four castes. As a Shudra, a Sikh is to believe in the dignity of labour. As a Vaishya, Sikh is meant to engage in commerce with honesty and work for the prosperity of the society. As Kshatriya, the Sikh is meant to carry weapons and not shy away from a just fight. And finally, as a Brahman the same Sikh – who has simultaneously all varnas in his being – is to recite Sri Guru Granth Sahib and also play priestly role whenever needed.
… Fighting for both one’s life and faith was the greatest need in era of Gurus. Therefore, the Kshatriya part of Sikh’s identity got more highlighted in Sikh society but it does not mean that the Shudra, Vaishya and Brahmin aspects of his personality were to be devalued. Dignity of labour is the cornerstone of Sikh faith and maryada (prestige or honour). Each Sikh is to take pride in doing service or seva.”
It is this very assertion by Baldev Singh that is self contradictory to his earlier boastings above as regards the caste issue. At the same time it also proves my contention that Sikhs were forced to bifurcate out from their Hindu community to protect them from the atrocities by invading Islamic plunderers and nomadic barbarians. It is certainly disappointing to see that the same class of people who once acted as protectors of Hindus have become disaffected and turned their back against the parent society.
All of the Sikh Gurus were born in Khatri caste. Guru Nanak’s father Mehta Kalu was also a shopkeeper and he tried his best to make his son follow his caste profession of shopkeeping.
Baldev Singh further extends his apologia, “The reasons for such petty arguments about each others’ relative social status are unfortunate and are to be seen in the backdrop of colonial era, when the trading castes like Khatri and Baniya were perceived to be usurers and exploiters of the misery of indebted farmers from these landowning and agricultural castes. British policies also played some role in fostering already existing schisms among the Indian castes.
For some reason British army recruiters considered all of these mercantile castes unfit for military service. Khatri Sikhs were sometimes recruited when they happened to have taken up farming and sometimes because of their knowledge of Pashto, which came in handy to British to deal with the unruly Pathans… While Bhatias mostly did not even find a mention in recruitment manuals of Royal Indian Army, the Aroras were contemptuously dismissed with comments… by the likes of Barstow : “The Arora, whether Sikh or Hindu, is generally unsuited for military service, and men of this class should never be enlisted except under special circumstances.””
Professors Niranjhan Singh and Baldev Singh ‘Panthi’ have both done extensive research on this sensitive issue of castes in Sikhs as well as they also mention its ramifications in other religious communities e.g. Muslims and Christians. However the work done by Baldev Singh appears more extensive Vis a Vis Niranjhan Singh. Both have given their detailed accounts in their separate works independently. Both of them have first segregated the various major castes in Sikhs; then enlisted the various subcastes in alphabetical order.
It counts in thousands and is mind boggling.
It is bewildering that in Sikhism, which is now claimed to be a religion, in such a short span of time of mere three centuries, the caste in Sikhs is far more deep rooted than Hindus. Baldev Singh has tried to extend various excuses, apologias and causes for this caste practice in Sikhs; hideously incriminating the British Raj politics also. It certainly was a major factor indeed.
Baldev Singh and Niranjhan Singh have painstakingly tried to enumerate the groups and subgroups in Sikhs, which will be briefly elaborated on herewith.
Various castes and subcastes in Sikhs:
Basically Sikh castes have been grouped under nine major heads altogether with thousands of further subgroups. Anyone interested in detailed bifurcation is requested to ctrl+click on the hyperlinked names which directs to their respective webs with extensive names of various castes and subcastes. As originally enunciated by Guru Nanakji, it should have been a casteless society. By the time of Guru Gobind Singhji, only in a span of one hundred and forty years, it became imperative for the last Guru Gobind Singhji to accept and perpetuate the four Varna systems as enunciated in ancient Hindu tradition which got corrupted over the time.
Baldev Singh mentions of a debate on castes in Sikhs and states, “There has been a vibrant debate within the Sikh Panth on the issue of the caste since late 19th century. Generally, this debate has been shaped by two broad lines of argument.” (1) Castes Exist But All Castes Are Equal. (2) Caste Should Not Exist At All.
Who would disagree on it?
This is clearly a helpless cry towards an indirect debilitating apologia while accepting the caste malaise and suggesting remedies simultaneously. But the remedies have been tried by the Hindus also over centuries, if not millennia; nay there have been painstaking hard societal battles fought by many Hindu socio-political and religious reformist leaders with sincere intention to eradicate it without any fruitful results.
The causes have been both intrinsic as well as extrinsic from the vested interests of the few powerful institutions or individuals or groups whose benefits were/are linked in its perpetual maintenance. The interests may have been either direct fiscally linked or predatory conversions indirectly or for continuing the clandestine rule by divide et impera.
Thus the very existence of caste and its multipronged bewildering subdivisions in small Sikh and Jewish communities could be a very good module to study, first the existence of castes; next to evolve the effective means to eradicate it.
Caste and subcaste groups in Sikhs:
I have been able to access two leading Sikh scholars on this issue; I shall try to briefly touch on their descriptions separately. Both are going to overlap each other slightly.
Professor Niranjhan Singh: Anyone wishing to peruse details of his descriptions is requested to peruse the hyperlinked name. He states the various castes under the following heads.
1. Brahmin surnames: Under two alphabets B and R – 2castes
2. Kshatriya surnames: Under alphabets A, B, C, K, M, S – 21 castes
3. Jatt surnames: Under A, B, C, D, F, G, H, J, K, L, M, N, O, P, Q, R, S, T, U, V, W, Y, – 949 castes
4. Ramgharia surnames: Under B, C, G, H, J, K, L, M, N, P, S, V – 42 castes
5. Chimba, Darsi, Taank-Kshatryia and Halvyi surnames: Under B, D, G, J, N, T, V – 9 castes
6. Chamaar, Lohaar and Churrah surnames: Under B, D, G, K, R, S – 20 castes. This section also has one separate group with ‘M/L i. e. Moonlighters’ who are counted as higher class in this otherwise low caste group.
It totals to 1043 (One thousand and forty three) names of castes.
Niranjhan Singh thinks that Gobind Singhji abolished the castes in Sikh communities and it restarted from the period of Maharaja Ranjit Singh and the Sikh Missls (from the Persian word “misl” meaning “similar” or “alike” generally refers to the twelve sovereign states in the Sikh Confederacy). However his statement is at variance with the view held by Professor Baldev Singh ‘Panthi’.
Baldev Singh feels that the four castes/Varnas were started by Guru Gobind Singhji. He thinks that caste was banned by Guru Nanak Devji from the very inception. But for certain reasons beyond his control, Guru Gobind Singh himself created this system in Sikhs during his life time like the four Varnas in Hindus as explained earlier.
Professor Baldev Singh ‘Panthi’ states in the introductory section of his essay under the section of “Major Sikh Castes and Subcastes” e.g. Arora, Khatri, Ramgarhia, Jat, Saini, Kamboh, Mahton, Chhimba, Mohyal, Chamar, etc. Each caste has its sphere of influence and specialization (same as in Hindus – Author). The order of castes… has been randomly mentioned one before the other.
Commercial Castes: Arora, Khatri and Bhatia Sikhs
Aroras and Khatris
In the cities, Khatri and Arora dominate the sphere of business activities. Khatri and Aroras are essentially identical caste and are primarily a caste of traders, shopkeepers and accountants. Sometimes people belonging to these castes are called “Bhapa Sikhs”.
Bhatias
Another minor Sikh commercial caste is that of Bhatias. Bhatias claim origin from Bhati Rajputs who had taken to shopkeeping.
Zamindar and Agriculturist Castes
Following Sikh castes are essentially agricultural and landowning castes: Jat, Kamboh, Mahton and Saini. In the estimation of British, only these Sikh castes were temperamentally and physically suited for active military service and warfare like the hardy Scottish Highlanders back home who also made excellent soldiers. The glorious Sikh Regiment, the most decorated regiment of the Indian Army, consisted of these castes primarily, although Labanas and Kalals were also sometimes recruited.
Artisan Castes
Ramgarhia is also a prominent Sikh caste. According to McLeod, the present day Ramgarhias are a caste formed by merging of Nais (barbers), Raj (blacksmiths) and Tarkhans (carpenters). They are primarily expert carpenters and blacksmiths.
Brahman Sikhs
Brahman, the highest caste among Hindus, does not have the same rank in Punjab, especially among Sikhs. In rural areas most of them are ordinary farmers and generally not as prosperous as Jats, Mahtons and Sainis etc. They also used to work as cooks in villages… In urban area they also do shopkeeping.
Nomadic and Wandering Castes
Another caste within Sikhs worth mentioning is that of Saansis. It is not a Sikh caste with significant numbers but they have produced one of the greatest Sikh personalities, i.e. Maharaja Ranjit Singh. This is a caste of vagabonds and gypsies. They claim origin from Bhati Rajputs and were enlisted as a criminal tribe by the British.
Labana is another Sikh caste. They were considered to be akin to Banjaras or gypsies but a considerable number of them are also settled in agriculture. Labanas engaged in agriculture are also called Labana Jats.
Service Castes
Among the Dalit caste groups are prominent ones – Chamars and Chooras. Both communities are called Mazhabi Sikhs. The word Chamar is derived from Charmakar or leather tanner. They used to be expert shoe-makers. Some poor men and women of this caste also work as laborers in the farms…
Discrimination against them as stated before unfortunately still exists in Sikh society. For this reason, Mazhbi Sikh brethren are extended reservation as scheduled caste. Mazhbi Sikhs have in the past made sterling contribution to Sikhism both as mystics and soldiers. Bhagat Ravidas belonged to Chamar caste but is accorded highest respect in Sikhism with his poetry being included in Sri Guru Granth Sahib. In recent times Sardar Buta Singh is a well-known Mazhbi Sikh politician.
Baldev Singh makes a detailed dissection and the above extract does show the real menace on account of castes in the Sikh community. Here is a brief list the Castes he further dwelt upon in his next section in Sikh Caste Names.
1. Bhatia Sikh subcastes: A, B, C, D, G, J, K, R, S, W – 18 castes
2. Jat Sikh subcastes: A, B, C, D, F, G, H, J, K, L, M, N, O, P, Q, R, S, T, U, V, W, Y – 995 castes. This group is largest of all, perhaps due to their agriculture profession.
3. Mahton Sikh subcastes: A, B, C, D, G, H, J, K, L, M, P, S, T, W – 48 castes
4. Kalal or Ahluwalia subcastes: A, B, C, D, H, J, K, L, M, N, P, R, S, T, Y – 67 castes
5. Kamboh Sikh subcastes: A, B, C, D, F, G, H, J, K, L, M, N, P, S, T – 104 castes
6. Khatri Sikh subcastes: A, B, C, D, G, H, J, K, L. M, N, O, P, R, S, T, U, V, W – 144 castes
7. Arora Sikh subcastes: A, B, C, D, G, H, J, K, L, M, N, P, R, S, T, V, W – 310 castes
8. Ramgarhia Sikh subcastes: A, B, C, D, F, G, H, J, K, L, M, N, P, R, S, T, V, W – 454 castes
9. Saini Sikh subcastes: A, B, C, D, F, G, H, J, K, L, M, N, P, S, T, U, V – 193 castes
All these numbers adds to a staggering figure of 2643 (Two thousand six hundred forty three). This is no mean figure. Thus this menace of caste curse is as bad in the contemporary Sikhs as it is in any other society. It should be noted that Baldev Singh spells ‘Ramgarhia’ while Niranjhan Singh has spelt it ‘Ramgharia’ and both are same except for the individual variant in its spelling. Perhaps my own inclination would be for Baldev Singh’s spelling.
It is pointed out that Sikhism is only a toddler in religious history. Jews are only a few millions in number and are fighting for their establishment in Israel; yet both have, more or less, been stung by the hornet of castes. One only needs to stretch their imagination to think of an order vibrantly flourishing since times immemorial, for countless millennia despite being persecuted from time to time by rapacious savage profligates of barren deserts and beyond.
Errata – from the last line in first para – “…from Nanak Saheb to the tenth Guru Gobind Singhji aka Gobind”
In the end it should have been “Gobind Rai”. This typing error is regretted. No disrespect or malice.
What sikhas do is none of our buisness. They can keep on promoting anything that they like including their non hindu, non plannetary martian origins for all we care. Its so retarded to see thag instead of building bridges with our hindu brethren in Nepal, Pakistan, Indonesia, Mynmar and other places here we are wasting time over sikhas with whom we have nothing to do culturally, religiously or otherwise. We are a billion plus people and yet we waste time over a bunch of people who hate us as much they hate plannet Sikha from where they originated
The only difference is that for all those creating caste structure in Sikhism can be directly negated because the original philosophy and the scriptures shun the stupid thing (nature does not create un-equal humans, and no religion can make them so either). However, in the case of Hinduism, even priests and pandits and brahmins would assume supremacy over lesser human-beings because their SCRIPTURES say so, so they are right because of the written word (Now don’t tell me your written word is not worth it). It is obvious that the society-of-the-time would try to corrupt and try to influence the new initiatives which is what has happened. People get carried away so easily, no matter a Sikh or a Hindu or a Muslim. If they see caste all around, they would be influenced by it. But the silver lining is that Sikhs have a reference to fall back upon, which is their scriptures which shuns the caste system. This is not the case with Hinduism, and as and when they fall back upon their scriptures and written word for a reference, they see casteism sprinkled all around and thus they sink even deeper. The poison does spread around, no matter the body or the society. And for the haters commenting here, you can keep enjoying living in your well like a frog.
Dear Mr/Ms JSS,
“And for the haters commenting here, you can keep enjoying living in your well like a frog.”
May I complete your sentence that that also includes you as well. It is easy to be pedantic if one doesn’t have fear for being proved wrong. You are so authoritavely commenting about Hindu scriptures as if you are a big pundit on these vast treasures. I won’t be rude to use ‘stupid’ word so easily.
Your obvious reference as hater is to Amit above, it is a naive observation from an ill informed person as I percieve it. That is why I ignored it. But what are you doing? It is no less blasphemous. I have given strong evidence in my essay from Sikh scholars. You are trying to bypass the issue by needlessly maligning Hindus. This is the reason for my writting these posts and once again you prove me right.
Please read or get some help to understand Hindu scritures. I shall avoid being rash like you. Hindus have multiples of sacred scriptures to lean on and quote. Who told you otherwise or your hate has prompted you to skew venom against the peace loving Hindus. All these so called religions of “Book” are thriving on hate propoganda against Hinduism instead of drawing the nectar out of their vast ocean of great wisdom.
Pouring hatred against Hinduism has become an international fashion parade. Please get out of this mean race. Srimad Bhagwat Geeta has several references but only if applied without bias. The epistemology is a double edged weapon. Needs a careful and diligent apllication.
Please read the post carefully and then deny if the caste in Sikhs exist or do not? Come to the point instead of using diversionary technique. There is no point in pouring undue anger.
When the Gurus themselves along with their children only married in their own caste than that explains it all why punjab thre jatt sikhs are persecuting the valamki sikhs.So whatever nonsense modern day sikhs come out with now is just all made up stuff in the shed about equality .Recently they were outside a sikh temple threatening people to stay away from a wedding taken place between a sikh and nigerian which also proves that these modern day sikhs are also extremely racist.So who cares what a small cult has to say when its totally irrelevant to the world of Hinduism.
@Sardar,
Thank you for your comment. I agree with you. Please give a little more detail of valmiki sikhs. Then there was a big fight between various groups of Sikhs in Punjab, one is Dera Saccha Sauda or something like it.
Then there was a problem somewhere in Austria when the two Sikh groups clashed again. Please throw more light on these episodes, someone who knows of those incidents. With regards and no malice but truth should be known.
Dr Sudrania, Recently they also killed an Udhasi Guru in punjab so its not only violence against other caste sikhs but also other sikh sects these neo sikhs are trying to eliminate in hopes of creating a new monotheist religion in the shape of islam who they have an inferiority complex with.They are turning the Guru Granth into another koran and even distorting all the meaningsThey are desperately taking all the hindu elements out of their fake new religion with extreme hatred against hindus.You can find enough details on valmikis and other sikhs groups on the net .Personally like Amit said we as Hindus should even give a damn about what they think because they are destroying themselves and are totally irrelevant to Hindus who belong to a world religion and not some small cult like modern day Sikhism.If you want to know true Sikhism ( who khalistanis hate)with its hindu roots then you should check this site for more information
http://www.shastarvidiya.org/
Dr. Sadrania,
Great article you have written but you have either misread or misinterpreted Prof. Baldev Singh’s article on sikhcastes.com . The following quote which you have used to allege the “reintroduction” of caste in Sikhism by Guru Gobind Singh is clearly not expressed nor implied by the quote or elsewhere in the article. All this is saying that Guru Gobind Singh made people realize that all the four varnas are vital and are there in every individual, and each Sikh individually can perform the tasks and duties of the all the four varnas whenever the need arises. This is clearly different from division of the society into four separate varnas. Since each Sikh is capable of performing the dharmas of all the four varnas simultaneously, there is no requirement to divide the society on this basis.
“Having failed to get the desired response from Rajput rulers after prolonged diplomacy and persuasion, the tenth Guru finally decided to institute a new Order in which each initiated Sikh could play the role of all the four castes. As a Shudra, a Sikh is to believe in the dignity of labour. As a Vaishya, Sikh is meant to engage in commerce with honesty and work for the prosperity of the society. As Kshatriya, the Sikh is meant to carry weapons and not shy away from a just fight. And finally, as a Brahman the same Sikh – who has simultaneously all varnas in his being – is to recite Sri Guru Granth Sahib and also play priestly role whenever needed.
… Fighting for both one’s life and faith was the greatest need in era of Gurus. Therefore, the Kshatriya part of Sikh’s identity got more highlighted in Sikh society but it does not mean that the Shudra, Vaishya and Brahmin aspects of his personality were to be devalued. Dignity of labour is the cornerstone of Sikh faith and maryada (prestige or honour). Each Sikh is to take pride in doing service or seva.”
Further he says that even though castes exist within Sikh society but all observant Sikhs believe in the fundamental equality of all castes. One fails to see where the article either “boasts” or self-contradicts as you allege. You have missed the “observant” qualification and the comment that not all Sikhs are really observant which has resulted in caste discrimination still being present in Sikh society . This is a rare open admission of the problem rather than any attempt to cover it or offer “apologia” as you seem to insinuate.
The order of castes given in the article does not imply a ritual hierarchy as you seem to think. The caste categories exists but none of the castes is ritually superior or inferior to the other as in the corrupted form of Hinduism. The inequality that still remains today in Sikh society mirrors pre-Sikh attitudes which Sikh society unfortunately has failed to overcome.
Guru Gobind Singh gave even Shudras the pathway to raise themselves to the level of Brahmans and Kshatriyas within one lifetime through the discipline of Khalsa Order (which was open to all castes) and showed the dignity of physical labour (seva) through personal example. Please note the words “within one life time” . All this was truly revolutionary for his time and is still worth emulating by the broader Hindu society. Sikhism , as taught in its original manner by Guru Gobind Singh, is the only viable solution to the ills of the Hindu society without killing spiritual elements which still may be worth saving.
Dear Chakram,
Thanks for your kind observation. Let me first assure you that it is not intended to hurt or malign any particular religion or society. Rather it is intended to highlight the origin of this caste malaise which was never (stress) inteded in the Hinduism in the first place. Today the human society has become so self centered that they are too busy in exercise of their self centered interests. I wish you had read my earlier Eleven Chapter document posted in Chakra where I had clearly revealed the problem globally. I also narrated the views of Dr. S. Radhakrishnan verbatim without my interlocution. He has said that we were all Brahmins or Shudras at birth in the beginning. Please do care to go through. It will give you some logical answer to your enquiring mind.
I feel very sad especially about the Sikh brothers and sisters who want to dissociate themselves from the mainstream parent body whom they one time propped up themselves to protect and fight against the then rising scourge of the allien desert barbarians.
“…but you have either misread or misinterpreted Prof. Baldev Singh’s article on sikhcastes.com .” I am not sure about your observation you make. I did not think I have either misred or misinterpreted deliberately. I have merely just read it without any bias. If I can put it again here that it is widely trumpeted that Guru Nanak Devji had intended to abolish the various castes at that time prevailing in the contemporary society of his time, but then Guru Gobind Singhji re-introduced it for some reasons, let us not divert on it.
As per your statement, “Further he says that even though castes exist within Sikh society but all observant Sikhs believe in the fundamental equality of all castes. One fails to see where the article either “boasts” or self-contradicts as you allege.”
I ask you, “How do you feel that this observation by you differ from the concepts laid down in the ancient Vedic scriptures and its subsequent other sacred testaments”? The same concept has been clearly expounded in Srimad Bhagvad Geeta, I am sure a person of your alacrity would know it.
This is exactly what I am wanting to explain. You feel aggrieved perhaps thinking it to indicative of “I” then “They” principle. This is the biggest problem this world is facing. They want to project themselves as superior than the others. This self centred mind needs broadening. Maligning one particular section without due regard to the other has thown us in this quagmire of chaotic situation.
I hope that my series of these articles would invoke a fresh thinking in the global community than indulging in hate and intolerance. The need of the hour is cohesion than fragmentation.
I paste here another clip from your comment, “One fails to see where the article either “boasts” or self-contradicts as you allege. You have missed the “observant” qualification and the comment that not all Sikhs are really observant which has resulted in caste discrimination still being present in Sikh society . This is a rare open admission of the problem rather than any attempt to cover it or offer “apologia” as you seem to insinuate.”
Either I have or you have, missed the “observant” qualification. Let us not get involved in the war of words. But I wish, “This is a rare open admission of the problem rather than any attempt to cover it or offer “apologia” as you seem to insinuate.”
I am not quite clear of your entire sentence but your blame on me of cover it up or offer “apologia” is total misinterpretation where you, in my measured respectful observation, is what you are apparently doing as “apologia” because you have not cared to go through my other postings which would have broadened your outlook to view it in greater perspective. I request you to kindly read my article, this one as well as the other series diligently to seek the answers within you than seeking outside. I am always open to constructive debate if it could lead us to a solution than a mere defensive “apologia”.
I wish my Sikh community fraternity would try to look into the Hindu societies’ woes when Guru Nanak Devji had started his journey. I am so sad that we have lost our bearings as Indian and indulge in this needless sectarian narrow politics. This is what the colonials wanted us and this is what we have resigned to be. I feel it highly unfortunate. We have taken pride in divided to fall than united to stand.
Be bold to face this scourge collectively and that is the major intention behind my painstaking exercise through these arduous series of writings. I hope that people like you should rally round to combat this menace which is being used by the various vested interestd institutions to subserve their religio-political interests. You cannot deny that it does not exist in Sikh society.
I am a follower of Guru Nanak-Gobind Singh and was born in Leeds, United Kingdom of Punjabi heritage and in my household we do NOT have Caste or any Hindu or Muslim practice or indeed any practice based on dogma or superstition and have the education and awareness that Guru Nanaj rejects ALL religion! and the most extraordinary fact is that wherever I travel around the World including India and the Middle-East on a regular basis I am afforded V.I.P. treatment and called ‘Sardarji’ and there is NO CASTE mentioned!…furthermore when I share my Ideology with Academics,Military and Police Officers and even numerous Taxi Drivers, they tell me that there is NO belief in a ‘GOD’ or ‘AFTERLIFE’ and little or NO morality and all that the Indians want is MONEY and a MALE CHILD…So the TRUTH of Guru Nanak 500 years on is awesome enough to be tangible and lived out by his true followers…
@ Baldev Singh, “a follower of Guru Nanak-Gobind Singh and was born in Leeds, United Kingdom of Punjabi heritage” and “…they tell me that there is NO belief in a ‘GOD’ or ‘AFTERLIFE’ and little or NO morality and all that the Indians want is MONEY and a MALE CHILD…” Before I go further, my dear Singhji, please peruse this link hereunder that may help you in someway:
The Filipina interviewer is quite lovely herself.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1VG7895XnU
The subject of afterlife involves “death” and I don’t think you or anyone whom you have conversed with had either. To see heaven, you need to die, and I mean it. To look into your occiput, you need a help from other’s eyes. Same way, kindly permit me to do that for you. I am neither stranger to UK nor the hubris of Indians living there. However I don’t boast for that.
As far as a craving for a son is concerned, “Let me take you back to your Guru, whom I adore no less than you, he came at the time when Hindus aka Indians (including your ancestry of present day Sikhs) when Islamic tyrany was at its peak and the Hindus were depressed and being denigrated in multitudes of ways. Esteemed Guru Nanakji took incarnation.
Not only that he became the predecesor for “Nine” more to come. Whether you or anyone you met, believe in ‘GOD’ or ‘Afterlife’ or not is your personal problem, I have no qualm with that but the fact remains that the ‘Lineage’ of Gurus from ‘First to Tenth’ in Sikhism is a sign of “deja vu”, which has to be related to some “Supernatural Force”, force is another indicator for energy, which is a property of visible matter yet invisible truth. If we accept matter but deny existence of energy, is a laughable joke.
Thus both “Visible and Invisible” are an integral parts of the same thing but just a mater to “Experience” and realise. This is another aspect and a totally different issue, which is beyond the scope of this discussion. I have written a series of chapters on this subject, available on the net under the caption, “Is Yoga Science or Religion?” I first elaborated starting with what science is, finishing with the Ashtanga Yoga Sutras of the Great Rishi Patanjali. Please do care to enlighten yourself.
As regards Hindus or Indians wanting a son, you may not understand it fully being disconnected being born and brought up in UK (as per your surmise), if Hindus would have been that stingy for “caste”, neither Dr. Manmohan Singh would have been PM of India nor Ms Antonia Edwige Maino Vinci would have been the head of UPA as the most deceptive and illusive white skin beauty that confused our late beloved Rajiv Gandhi aka Roberto Vinci. I hope your will agree with me (a poor Indian) and born in Hindu family, yet I believe in “Vasudev Kutumbakam”. But I do claim to have my right to live and live in happiness and dignity, which can not be a matter of copyright for any predatory victor.
Lastly I thank you for taking trouble to visit my article here and enlighten us with your kind experience. Please keep visiting us with your open mind and oblige us.
@ Baldev Singh,
I missed out one word, “…and little or NO morality…”. Truth is very bitter and if told bitterly, it is just vomitted out, is not swallowed at all, making it useless, yet truth is the fact that sustains us all. Hence however bitter it may be, truth has to be realised. Guru Nanakdevji had taken a lot of trouble in his life for penance to enlighten himself to experience the same very truth.
Coming to our truth in worldly life, as I observed in my eralier reply to you, we are discovering the ‘morality’ everyday in India by our “liberal experimentation” and our esteemed present “Prime Minister
Dr. Manmohan Singh (Oxford)” is no exception who is an Indian…. I feel only very sad at this ‘moral’ lesson. You may not be aware of in “UK” but the world at large is aware of. The number of economic (money) scandals under his leadership is mind bogling and the black money he has allowed to generate has even shamed the British colonialism. He is said to be a world renowned economist (manager in money maters).
Guru Nanak was the first and only non-muslim to visit Mecca openly, and instead of killing Guru Nanak the Hajis and Malwis fell at his feet! why ? because of his powerful words about there being NO muslim and NO hindu… just ONE humanity…the Hajis and Malwis asked Guru Nanak about this new mystery called ‘Religion’ and Guru Nanak replied to them that ‘just like the safflower dipped in water’ the colour of ‘Religion’ also wore off ! …And finally when Guru Nanak was asked if they the muslims would go to heaven or the ‘hindus’ , Guru Nanak told them that you cannot go to heaven because you are a hindu or muslim but as a result of your deeds! and without good deeds both the muslim and hindu weeps and wails! ( I see them weeping and wailing virtually every day on my LED tv , almost 500 years after Guru Nanak uttered these extraordinary words ) and Guru Nanak also told them that ‘you both don’t worship your respective gods allah and raam but denounce allah and raam and instead worship the way of the devil ! And today this extraordinary dialogue is more real than ever! with the muslims and hindus in the news every single day for their treatment of the female, people who don’t adhere to their beliefs, and their greedy, sly clergy instigating their morbidly superstitious followers in the dogma of hate and violence in exchange for power, like they were some sort of Roman Emperor presiding over Gladitorial Killing Games…You can catch the latest offerings of this dogmatic sectarian nightmare created by until recently, mostly illiterate, hindus and muslims on your own screens.
@ Baldev Singh,
I am not sure about your incessant rant about Sikhism and Guru Nanak, while you sound to be full of aspersions against Hindus and Muslims. I intentionally delayed replying to your current blather, which is totally irrelevant to the topic in the first place, secondly it is silly as well, if I do not sound harsh. I am positive that you are an idle mind full of devilish thoughts to subserve your own brand of “Baldev Singh rant”.
How the hell does it matter, “Guru Nanak travelled to Mecca or not”? Those Talibanis who beheaded your Sikh fellow for Zizya ransom, you should go to Pakistan and try to convince those barbarians and tell them of your childish babble and blah blah…
This topic is about caste and stick to the point if you want to say something or else, I suggest you also to go to Mecca and screech your stupidity there. They will tell you and fix you too. I and the entire gentry here would be very happy and pray for your “Hajj”. Sat Sri Akaal… But bring back your head, I wish…
…But it is all TRUE…and TRUTH is something the hindus and muslims cannot accept because of morbid superstition…there is NO caste in the HOUSE OF NANAK or in the KHALSA…and they are both everywhere on Earth…and they cannot be defeated, because you cannot defeat TRUTH.
To Baldev,
”The four castes – the Kh’shaatriyas, Brahmins, Soodras and Vaishyas – are equal in respect to the teachings.” -Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Ji p. 747
”aapae dhas ath varan oupaaeian aap breham aap raaj laeiaa || He Himself created the people of the eighteen castes; God Himself acquired His domain”~Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Ji p. 553
There are four castes: Brahmin, Kh’shaatriya, Soodra and Vaishya, and there are four stages of life. One who meditates on the Lord, is the most distinguished and renowned.~Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Ji p. 861
___________
Just one POINT, in 1896, the British created the Singh Sabha a christian reform movement to promote Abrahamic ideology into Sikhism, to attack Hinduism. The original singh sabha was called Sanatan Singh Sabha, today majority of Sikh are actually following a British Christianised version of Sikhism.
So people like Baldev are common, they do not know sikhism, or sikh history, or ideology, they only know it the framed argument created by British Christians, as Sikhs are not Hindus, as the first book published by the British Created Singh Sabha was ”we are not Hindus”.
The Guru Granth 100% states, that first its not CASTE ITS VAARNA, and that God himself developed the Vaarna system, and this is what the GURUS STATED THEMSELVES.
Vaarna turned into Caste during Islamic and Christian occupation, when non believers where banned from socialsing, going out, riding horses, speaking to eachother, north India under Islamic occupation turned into a vaste ghetto of Hindus,
This is exactly the reason why Guru Nanak rejects all ‘RELIGION’ ! …the mughal muslims,the british christians and now the political hindus have tried everything to get rid of Sikhism but have failed! and GURU NANAK’S BIRTHDAY AND THE BIRTH OF THE KHALSA IS CELEBRATED ACROSS THE PLANET UNABATED…Gurdwaras ask no questions to visitors including ‘casteist’ hindus! so acknowledging that there is no caste in Sikhism whether any of them are secular or practicing Sikhs…Guru Nanak tells us that the clergy of the ‘religions’ cheat their followers and live in dualty and hypocrisy : ‘THE QAZI EATS FILTH AND TELLS LIES, THE BRAHMIN KILLS THEN TAKES CLEANSING BATHS, THE YOGI IS BLIND AND DOES NOT KNOW THE WAY , THE THREE DEVISE THEIR OWN DESTRUCTION’ : SGGS PAGE 662…these words we use across the planet with people of every background and ideology and there is no contention , no hatred, no anger , just silence.
Sikhism is a bhakti movement which is anti “manuwaadi” (just google it) means anti manu smariti a hindu vedic constitution…. hence guru granth sahib ji is spiritual research work without plagiarism and its hypothesis is given in the beginning in the form of “mul mantra” (which is the precis of the whole granth sahib ji) so this spiritual work contains the maximum “anti manuwadi” literature (un plagerized) from majority of “anti manuwaadi” saints like sant kabir, sant ravidas ji, sant ramdev ji who were alll shudras … its simple common sence they dont follow varnas being an anti manuwaadi. Now this spiritual thesis guru granth sahib ji has been constructed into various hymes …now picking up one line from certain stanza leaves the meaning of the whole stanza incomplete …hence picking up a word “varna” from even a line dose not means that …OH! word varna is mentioned. the common sence is punjab being a riparian area thnaks to the five rivers made it most fertile being based as a himalayan basin attracted many tribes … these tribes became “biradaries” … hence fight for land and etc etc old age social science took place … caste system of four varnas never exsisted in punjab as various tribes from here and there came setteled ….. punjab has the maximum number of scheduled castes percentage in whole of india…. and hinduism is a actually a self evolved society while no particular one person to be acknowledged as such self made concept of castes never plaed the key role …. half of the hindu is already banned in the constitution, namely “UNTOUCHABILITY”, “WIDHWA ASHRAM” (more or less widow prstitution as vedas stae that noone has the right to know that how a widow makes her earning after being casterated from the mainstream society), “SATI PRATHA” (widow voluntary immolation upon the husband’s pyre) i mean this is ridiculous what are they trying to proove by this article that that regional biradari sytem bening practiced by punajabi muslims and punjabi sikhs is all part of varna dharma???? what about non punjabi sikhs? the pahtan sikhs in peshawar who are pathan converts to sikh with pushto mother tongue? what about white converted sikhs whos mother tongue is english, do they follow varna dharma? what about sizeable latino sikhs, whos mother tongue is spanish, do they practice varna dharma? what rubbish is this how could they link up a “REGIONAL” aspect to sikh religion…… ???? the tamils in mauritius dont call themselves hindus…. the south indians dont shove up their throats about aryan dominance hence they dont consider themselves as hindus…… the hinduvta champions in mumbai beated up up and bihari hindus out of mumbai withouteven thinking that they are natives of lord ram and bhagwat gita was written in north india in haryana (former punjab) … its just main dominance of the hindi belt in india ….. nothing else when the hinduvta chmapions beat up the north indians without forgetting about the hindu heritage so its better to think up that india is not a country but merely a geographical area….this is what Einstein said exactly after meeting rabindra nath tagore…!!!!!! hence u cant connect regionalism to a religion …lol use common sence !!!!
Nanak Naam Chardi Kalaa , Theray Bhanay Sarbhat Dha Bhallha ….Nanak In the Name of the Creator may the ascending force, of your will, bestow goodwill on everyone…
So here we go again, Uncle S(h)am resurrecting as the ancient Max Muller invoking his fake Manusmriti. Just like the current militant Sikhism created by ISI for its political mileage against India. ISI = non state actors = undefined but visible and perceptible terror. This basic instinct of hate in the homo sapiens is the root cause of all evils that lead them various kinds of “Tags” on their forheads, e.g. Christian, Sikhism, Buddhism, Islam, Judaism, of course the much maligned despicable(?) Hinduism, as they love to sling mud on.
By the way, I have raised this question earlier also but went unheeded. What is the difference between “Sikhism and Khalsaism” How does a Sikh differ from a Khalsa. How does the Militant Sikhism of Bhindrewala differ from the mainstream Sikhism or Khalsaism? Pertinent questions, worth knowing?
To save Guru Nanak’s timeless Ideology of ‘goodness’ for Humanity in a time of pure barbarism and tyranny by both the Islamic rulers and ruled Hindus… Guru Gobind Singh Created the KHALSA the ‘PURE’ where ordinary humans became Saint-Warriors and they became so successful that they ended a thousand years of Islamic rule in South Asia and despite being a tiny minority then and now CANNOT be defeated! … South Asian Politics is linked to money tribalism and jobs and the politicians play the Caste and Race card and the Congress Party in India like the Muslim Party in Pakistan, use local figures to divide the people on political-sectarian and religious lines but some of these figures rebel and UNDERSTAND that they are being used as ‘puppets’ and tell their political master but the master uses this as more propaganda for its followers and the result is hatred, violence and chaos…This happened after the EMERGENCY in India in the 1970’s where the Congress Party needed votes so created an ‘Extremist’ Leader to divide the ‘Sikh’ Punjab Vote but it backfired as the ‘Extremist’ Leader realised he was being used and the minority Sikhs would ultimately lose their Language and Identity through the Congress Party’s shenanigans, because all they wanted was Power at any cost! THE RESULT ? a 26 year low intesity war in Punjab and beyond and hundreds of thousands of innocent deaths ! and when the Indian Army and Government realised they could NOT defeat or subdue the Sikh Fighters they gave up and started another conflict in Kashmir with the Muslims being set up as the ‘enemy’ for the Congress ‘sympathy’ Vote! …There is NO militant Sikhism … Sikhs are a tiny minority and are respected globally but the Punjab has been sucked into dirty South Asian Politics and whenever Sikhism is threatened then top Sikh Fighters rise up and send out a spectacular message to their overwhelming adversaries that you will ‘NEVER GET RID OF THE HOUSE OF NANAK OR THE KHALSA AND TRUTH’ …KHALSA is the true army of the Creator and all of its victories come from the Creator…VAHEYGURU JI KA KHALSA VAHEYGURU JI KI FATHE…
Mr. Pandit & Mr. Singh just like Kashmir is an upper riparian area similarly Punjab is also an upper riparian area. Just like Kashmir issue is painted by religion for pakistanis to see similarly frequenty such websites and philosophers make so called efforts about Sikhism and Hinduism r being made to retain the northwestern reparian area, and nothing else
South Asia needs contraception and the right education NOT religion,,caste, sectarianism and politics ! Canada is larger than India yet has a population of 35 million and India has a population of 1200 million ! Until recently most Indians were abject poor and illiterate and called Sikhs ‘Sardar Ji’s’ and many still do today despite caste and politics ! The largest slums on planet earth have always been in India with a mix of Hindus,Muslims some Christians and Bhudists BUT never a Sikh ! …the politics of South Asia is mostly ‘Blood for Votes’ and ‘Votes for Jobs’ and the politicians need conflict and division for votes and ‘Religion’ is the most convenient divider of Humans here followed by caste…If the Kashmir problem, war and conflict did not exist, they wiould find another problem in another area to get their populations’ passions high and baying for blood and their ‘patriotic’ vote every four or five years!
Ok Mr writer again u sad that jews have an occupational caste system bt where it is in israel n U.S??Where 90% jews live,please explain this,remember u r talking about endogamous occopational cates like hindus have 6400 castes! Even indian jews(just in thousands) doesnt have this n than u r talking about sikhs!!Alryt i dont think that u dont knw clearly that which u r saying jatts n chamars n sainis n lohars n kambohs have thousands of subcastes etc they are not subcastes they paternal linages or gotras which tells u about ur male ancestary!!n even sikhs dont have any Vaishya or brahmin(priestly caste)made for just trading n praying!!anyone out of sikh religion can do this from beggining,n if u think gotras or sur names are castes than our hindus have more than crore castes hw u r saying!! Sikh have some caste gps,bt this is hundred times different than hindu caste system n all of it is still present in sikhismjust becoz its early converts were hindus they had brought this caste with them in a diluted form