Read Is Caste Only a Hindu Problem? PART 1
Caste in the Dynasty of Isaac
Prophet Abraham some few millennia ago, had a son with Sarah viz Isaac who later gave rise to two religions – Judaism and Christianity. First the Judaism took its roots via Hebrewism and the well known Prophet Moses among the Jews laid down the Ten Commandments. The Holy Scripture is called the Old Bible or Hebrew Bible or Torah propounded at sometime about 1400 BC. It had a much fractured history of ups and downs; in and out of the then Canaan province, the Israel of today. Later on Jesus Christ took birth in the Jewish community from the womb of Virgin Marry by Divine Providence about two millennia ago. His life and message through the well known teachings in the New Testament or Bible is followed by the two Billion people globally. For reasons not exactly known and by the dint of fate, Jews did not flourish as much as the Christians. Hence the history of Judaism is also limited as compared to the Islam and Christianity. In this issue I wish to deliberate on the caste systems prevalent in both these Abrahamic sects to the best of my epistemology and with no malice.
Section A
Caste in Jewish people:
It is sadly interesting to know that the word “Jew” itself has become blasphemous due to the adverse historical perspectives. It is preferred to say, “Jewish or Jewish person”. If I have erred in my endeavour, I remain to be forgiven. It is not my intention to hurt the sentiments of anyone deliberately and by indulging in needless argumentative heresy.
Jonah Goldberg has addressed it, “…Anyway, he called and said, “Hey, Jonah, isn’t it sort of bad to call someone ‘a Jew.'” After a brief moment to digest the question, I knew exactly what he was talking about.
It is bad to call someone a Jew, sort of.
The newspapers and nightly news shows keep using the word “Jew” where normally you would expect them to say “Jewish” or “Jewish person.” Senator Lieberman is as often as not referred to as “a Jew” in print, television and radio.” More at: http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/jonah081500.asphttp://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/jonah081500.asp
Thus to call someone ‘Jew’ is as pejorative as the ‘Caste slur’ in present scenario.
In his article on ‘The Non Hindus in Caste System’, in India, Aharon Daniel, a Mumbai born Jewish now living in Israel, delineated his views on the Jewish caste system in the succeeding excerpt. “In the Konkan coast there is Jewish community called Bene Israel. Some claim that these Jews are from the ‘Lost Tribes’. These Jews who arrived in India after their ship-wrecked near the Konkan coast claim that they and the Kokanastha Brahmans are descendants of the survivals from the same ship. And in their version, it was not an incarnation of Lord Vishnu who converted the Kokanastha Brahmans but a local Brahman. Anyway these Jews do not have gray-green eyes like the Kokanastha Brahmans.
Different religion followers got different status in different parts of India. The Jews of west India called Bene Israel, had a different status from Jews of south India, Cochini Jews. The Bene Israels professed oil pressing and they had a status equal to a Hindu Jat called Somwar Teli, which also professed oil pressing and were part of Sudra Varna. Some orthodox Hindus treated anyone who wasn’t one of them as untouchable and therefore treated the Jews also as untouchables. But even though the Jews in west India had low status there were among them some who were landlords, businessmen and high rank officers in local armies.
Comparing to the Bene Israels, the Jews in south India had higher status. The Jews in Kerala were the business community of Kerala. They even ruled a small principality. They had aristocratic rights, such as use of elephants and sedans. They even had servants whose job was to announce their coming to the streets so that the low castes could move away from their way.
The relations between the Jewish communities of India are sometimes explained as affected by the Indian caste system but these relations can also be explained according to Jewish religious laws. There were three main Jewish communities in India; the Baghdadis, the Bene Israels and Cochinis. The Baghdadi Jews were much strict about religious laws than the Bene Israel Jews. The Baghdadis did not mingle with Bene Israel Jews. The Baghdadis did not allow marriages between their children and the children of Bene Israel. They did not eat food prepared by Bene Israel and they refused to count the Bene Israel as part of the Minyan (the ten necessary to start a Jewish prayer). Many explain these relations as an influence of the Indian caste system on the Jewish communities. According to this explanation, the Baghdadi Jews referred to themselves as higher caste than the Bene Israel Jews and therefore did not mingle with them. But these relations between the Jewish communities can also be explained according to the Jewish Halacha laws. The Baghdadi Jews who were much strict about Jewish laws and diet did not mingle with the Bene Israels because the Bene Israels were secular Jews and they perceived in Bene Israel Jews as impure Jews.” More at: http://adaniel.tripod.com/foreigners.htm
However the Jewish community never got concentrated in a place as their nation and after nineteenth century CE, they became capsized by the Anti-Semitic fervour and were largely persecuted resulting in the massive holocaust by Hitler in WW II. It resulted in their present settlement in Israel in 1948. Thus it limits their caste history also.
The Jewish community in fact became a caste in itself in the midst of the Arab land to find a foothold for them. This led to a Zionist movement in the Arab land finally to the establishment of Israel. More at:
http://racetraitor.org/sabra2.html
http://www.english.emory.edu/Bahri/Jews.html
http://www.kailaonline.net/documents/jewsinindia.pdf
The total population of Jews world over is estimated at around 15 Millions which make it about 0.24% of the world population. In such a nominally minor population also, who are said to be declining over all; there is a caste division as indicated above. The fact is that due to their threat to survival, one would rather expect cohesion in their residual population of whatever denomination. Hence even this caste division in Jews becomes quite significant in such trying times.
Section B
Caste in Christianity:
Christians form the largest community in the world and still growing in their evangelic efforts. Christians have used both violent and peaceful means depending on the opportunity at hand. The Christian Missionaries have organised themselves under the patronage of their single most patriarch as head priest called Pope based at the Vatican in Rome. He supposedly controls the larger Catholic sect of the Christians to the extent of about more than 80% while the Protestants constitutes about 20% whose head is the British monarch and guided by the Archbishop of Canterbury in London. There are vast number of subdivisions in both Catholics and Protestants also,.
In India Christianity is said to have first arrived with Saint Thomas in Kerala with a controversial history. He is said to have been helped by the then Travancore Kingdom to settle and they helped him in building about half a dozen churches both in Kerala and erstwhile Madras states. The present Christian history has been marred with controversial accounts, both in India and globally. A retired IAS officer – V. Sundaram wrote a four part article in 2008 under the caption, “Fraudulent myth of the tomb of St Thomas – I”. This is the first part and can be accessed at: http://newstodaynet.com/col.php?section=20&catid=33&id=8836
His other parts can be perused at the following sites:
Part II – http://newstodaynet.com/col.php?section=20&catid=33&id=8866
Part III – http://newstodaynet.com/col.php?section=20&catid=33&id=8901
Part IV – http://newstodaynet.com/col.php?section=20&catid=33&id=8914http://newstodaynet.com/col.php?section=20&catid=33&id=8914
Ishwar Sharan has resolutely written in his inimical style all these four posts on his website in the column, “St. Thomas in India: An IAS officer revisits a 400-year-old history hoax – “Baritone” V. Sundaram”. Sharan has added some extra graphics and links to supplement his column. His post can be accessed at:
Some Christians also oppose the proposed labeling of “Christian Scheduled castes” because they feel their identity may be assimilated. Pastor Salim Sharif of the Church of North India notes “We are becoming another class and caste.” ”
Incidence:
“Caste discrimination is strongest among Christians in South India and weaker among urban Protestant congregations in North India. This is due to the fact that in South India, whole castes converted en masse to the religion, leaving members of different castes to compete in ways parallel to Hindus of the Indian caste system.
There are separate seats, separate communion cups, burial grounds, and churches for members of the lower castes, especially in the Roman Catholic Church. Catholic churches in India are largely controlled by upper caste Priests and nuns. Presently in India, more than 70 per cent of Catholics are Dalits, but the higher caste Catholics (less than 30% by estimates) control 90 per cent of the Catholic churches administrative jobs. Out of the 156 catholic bishops, only 6 are from lower castes.
There are a large number of various caste groups in Kerala, Goa, Tamilnadu and Andhra Pradesh in the Christians enumerated in the website of Wikipedia given below.
Criticism
Many Dalit Catholics have spoken out against discrimination against them by members of the Catholic Church. A famous Dalit activist with a nom-de-plume of Bama Faustina has written books that are critical of the discrimination by the nuns and priests in Churches in South India. Pope John Paul II also criticized the caste discrimination in the Roman Catholic Church in India when addressing the bishops of Madras, Mylapore, Madurai, Cuddalore, and Pondicherry in late 2003. He went on to say: “It is the Church’s obligation to work unceasingly to change hearts, helping all people to see every human being as a child of God, a brother or sister of Christ, and therefore a member of our own family”.”
More at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste_system_among_Indian_Christians
This deposition shows, “How the Church lied to convert the local Hindu lower class people.”
“With the advent of the Christian missionaries in India under the patronage from the British rule in the eighteenth century, a new chapter of proselytisation began. The missionaries were able to use this weakness in Hinduism to convert those who were worst hit by the caste cancer prejudice.
These missionaries concentrated their “charity” work mainly in the tribal areas. They told the tribals that they were not Hindus, that their indigenous culture and religion was different from Hinduism. They taught them that Christianity, an alien religion was their own; that Jesus Christ who was born and lived in the Middle-East was also a ‘dalit’ like them and that Christianity was a religion without the caste bias and offered them socio-economic equality. In their desire to lead a life of respect, thousands of tribals got converted to Christianity assuming that they had found an answer to the wretched caste system in Hinduism.
Little did they know that conversion to Christianity would not redeem them from social discrimination and untouchability, because though Jesus never advocated the caste system, Christianity in India was not free from the caste bias? Christian outfits which criticized Hinduism for its caste system, practised discrimination based on casteism in their Churches. In spite of the fact that around 75 to 80% of the Christians are ‘dalits’ who got converted to Christianity to lose their caste or ‘outcaste’ tag, Dalit Christians within the Church were discriminated against and were denied powers within the ecclesiastical structure.”
Logically, the term ‘Dalit Christians’ is self-contradictory. How can a person be a ‘Dalit’ when he is a Christian; for Christianity (supposedly – Author) does not recognise the caste system which is an evil prevalent only in the Hindu society (supposedly – Author)?
K.K Pudur village in Maduranthugam Taluk, Chegalpattu District, 60 kilometers from Madras, has a Catholic population of 2500. Of these, 1500 are Dalit Catholics. The rest of the catholic population belong to the Reddy and the Naidu upper caste. For the past 200 years, these upper caste Christians have oppressed the Dalit Christians by not giving them their due place in the Church and in the graveyard. On 7 May 1994, there was a violent clash between the two classes of Catholics at K.K. Pudur as they were preparing for the celebration of the patron feast of their patron Saint Joseph. The case was filed with the police and eighty-four people from both factions were jailed and the church stayed closed for six months.
Rev. John Duraisamy, an editor of Sarvaviyabi, a Tamil Weekly from the archdiocese of Pondicherry-Cuddalore published two cartoons consecutively on 4 & 11th July 1999. These cartoons were an insult to the 240 million dalits or the untouchables of India. The Archbishop of Pondicherry who belonged to the same caste as the editor, was silent on the matter.
Archbishop George Zur, Apostolic Pro-Nuncio to India said while inaugurating the CBCI (Catholic Bishops Conference of India) in 1991:
“Though Catholics of the lower caste and tribes form 60 per cent of Church membership they have no place in decision-making. Scheduled caste converts are treated as lower caste not only by high caste Hindus but by high caste Christians too. In rural areas they cannot own or rent houses, however well-placed they may be. Separate places are marked out for them in the parish churches and burial grounds. Inter-caste marriages are frowned upon and caste tags are still appended to the Christian names of high caste people. Casteism is rampant among the clergy and the religious. Though Dalit Christians make 65 per cent’ of the 10 million Christians in the South, less than 4 per cent of the parishes are entrusted to Dalit priests. There are no Dalits among 13 Catholic Bishops of Tamilnadu or among the Vicars-general and rectors of seminaries and directors of social assistance centres.” More at:
http://www.christianaggression.org/item_display.php?type=articles&id=1096932004
In a column published on 20 June 2007, Times of India stated, “”Would the Christians admit that they practise caste system and that Dalits (among them) face social discrimination requiring reservation to uplift their cause? This is not all that easy,” a Bench headed by Chief Justice K G Balakrishnan said granting eight weeks to the Centre to report back to court.”
It further continued, “Christians claim to be a casteless society. Dalit Christian activists, who have agitated for Dalit status for long, recently got a shot in arm when the Justice Ranganath Mishra Commission endorsed their case.
Appearing for them, senior counsel Shanti Bhushan cited the Mishra Commission’s report as he argued that the SC category be expanded to include Dalits who have now embraced Christianity and Islam.
He argued for the scrapping of the Constitution (Scheduled Castes) Order, 1950, restricting reservation benefits to Dalits only among Hindus, Buddhists and Sikhs.
“It is clear from the commission’s report that a mere change in religion did not bring about a change in their social status,” Shanti Bushan argued. He was supported by senior advocate Ram Jethmalani, appearing for the All India United Christian Movement for Equal Rights.
Jethmalani said the Congress government had brought in a Bill in 1996 with the objective of giving Dalits equal rights irrespective of the religion they profess. “It is only politics that has deprived the Dalit Christians their legitimate due,” he added. More at:
http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2007-07-20/india/27987277_1_dalit-christian-sc-status-dalit-status
How the lies are propagated by the Vatican agents:
In a news column by Catholic News Agency from Rome, Italy, it is interesting to read the clip.
Sep 2, 2008 / 04:40 pm (CNA).- In an interview with Vatican Radio, the Archbishop of Ranchi in India, Cardinal Telesforo Placidus Toppo, said that the Catholic Church’s defense of the sacredness of the human person and its opposition to the caste system are what is fueling the violence against Christian minorities in India.
“In the caste system, equality doesn’t exist. That is why the Church’s commitment to overcome the caste system is not accepted. For us the person is sacred,” Cardinal Toppo said.
… “There are socio-economic-political factors at play, factors that are at the root of these incidents, of the burning of Christian-owned properties. Another factor is the law against conversions. We have clarified that we do not convert people by force,” the cardinal said.
In response to these aggressions, he continued, the response of the Church “is that of Jesus, Christians have not responded to the aggressions. I think we will be given help by the central government and by the State,” the cardinal noted, praising the many “good initiatives. And here let me underscore: equality among all is a threat for the fundamentalists.” More at:
http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/opposition_to_caste_system_is_root_of_attacks_against_christians_in_india_says_archbishop/
Anyone reading this entire column can make out the blatant white lie being uttered and the crocodile tears shed through an Indian mouth piece to appear as a profound legitimate truth coming out from a person on the spot. They still claim to be the Apostles of peace and truth!
I logged in Google for “Caste System in Christianity” and got 16, 000, 000 results in 0.16 seconds. One can easily gauge the enormity of the problem. I assert but sadly, in such a vested environment where the high and mighty are hell bent on perpetuating the malaise of divisive political and religious agendas covertly where spoken words do not match the ground realities of actions performed, the larger common masses are left with very little choice to help themselves. A common person is too weak to confront these monstrous designs of the politico-religious powerful institutions. Politics and religions are both equally guilty of this nefarious act and the staged drama. My contention is further fortified by the following excerpt from a leading British news media.
Nick Cohen in his column in the Guardian.uk, “The secret scandal of Britain’s caste system” observes, “British Asians, secularists and Liberal Democrat and Labour politicians have been trying for years to persuade the government to tackle caste discrimination. They have had no success because the treatment of untouchables is one of the great unmentionables of British politics. They are certainly the victims of a form of religious prejudice – the sanction for the oppression of lower castes in a pre-ordained hierarchy comes from Hindu creation myths. Yet caste prejudice does not fit easily into established views of how discrimination works, because caste divisions exist among Sikhs, Muslims and Christians whose families came from the sub-continent, as well as Hindus.”
Cohen further adds, “The casual observer of British politics might have thought that a voluble quangocrat, who is always willing to fill empty airtime with heart rending cries for greater equality, would have denounced caste prejudice with unembarrassed vigour. For once, however, Phillips is silent. A search of the Equality and Human Rights Commission records shows that it ignores caste discrimination in Britain.” More at:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/jun/26/nick-cohen-trevor-phillips-caste-discrimination
One can go on endlessly, and fruitlessly to deal on this topic of universal social malady wherein directly or indirectly, every existent society is involved with a continued hidden interest. It is being used more as rhetoric and sloganeering to exploit one section than explicitly eliminate it by demoralising. Caste appears like the system of flesh trade, which is denounced by everybody but nobody is prepared to eliminate it. They all like to immerse in it in the darkness of their daytime and enjoy it in the light of night time.
Dr. O. P. Sudrania
Dear Dr. O. P. Sudrania, I am surprised that some one like you could be so confused about your knowledge of the Bene Israel of India. 1. The Jews of India were never a part of the Indian Caste System.2. The were umteen marraiges between Bagdadi & Bene Israel, infact when a Baghdadi Girl wanted an Intectual Husband & social standing she would marry a Bene Israel and I have attended functions at The Homes of all my Baghdadi friends & they have attended functions and eaten without any problem in my house 7 that of my family when in India. 3. The Levites were the Tribe from which The Priest Cohanim Evolved. Though it was theorized by Haeem Samuel Kehimkar more than a century ago that the BIs were from the tribe of Levy it was only recentluy proven through DNA study by Prof Tudor Parfit that they were Levites/Cohanim. Further In ancient times it was the Levites who were responsible for the control & supervision of Dietry Laws and among them Oil Pressing (because it is an integral part of home cooking & good health) it was the Job of the Levites the Priestly class to ensure that the population was supplied with good unadulterated oil. The Bene Israel thus practiced in India what their ancestors did in Israle prior to their advent to India.You are well aware that in the Konkan area the Bene Israel enjoyed the Higest status and respect. Regarding the subject of Jew For example the Bene Israel Did not opt to be called Jews because Jew translates from Judah a tribe. Since they were not from Judah they called themselves Bene Israel – The Children of Jacob. Even our names such as the Rohekar, Talkar, Gadkar, Sassonkar etc are not taken from the Villages they lived in. As you are aware Names have their origin in the language of the regionin this case Marathi – But most of our names have no roots in Marathi but they do have roots in Hebrew. The implication is that the Village they lived in grew around the house of the resident BI at that location & took his name rather than the other way around. The Bene Israel though being a miniscule community have made a siginificant contribution to the evolution of Modern India and once agai I believe you are aware of that. I think that a person of your status should be more thorough in your scholastic advbentures.By the way I am a Bene Israel & Proud to be one. Nissim Moses
Dear Nissim Moses,
First of all I thank you and welcome on your enlightened comment. However where you have erred is that you have failed to appreciate that I have quoted a Jewish gentleman who was born/brought up in India and now lives in Israel. If your own community person is confused, that is not my fault.
My intention of writing up on this caste custom in various societies at large is only to initiate a wider debate and your reaction proves my point and serves its purpose. Regarding the contribution of Jews in India, I am not much aware of. I shall certainly be happy to learn from you. I did make a frantc search on this topic in Jewish society, but the literature on net is very scanty on it.
However as I have already expressed in my main article, it is not my intention to hurt anybody’s feelings but merely explore and enlighten ourselves where this caste is hurled as a sin in some societies while others use it as an instrument to malign them. Please continue reading a little more seriously and patiently and do come back with your valuable suggestions. Thanks once again.
We must also remember that in such matters, exceptions in cosmopolital societies do not change the prevailing mass customes in the larger part of the society. Nowadays the intercaste, inter-religious, inter-clan
and other combination marriages are taking place with long term good and bad results. We all know it. I have full regards for the Jewish people and my exploratory writings must not be taken as a personal issue.
We may or may not agree with someone but that should not be made a personal point of prestige. For this reason, when I take up a topic, I ensure to quote someone to substantiate or deny a view point. In scientific studies, one finding by a single author does not make it a very valid proof unless it is verified and substantiated by others. That may either accept or reject it. This is a normal scientific etiquette. I am sure, everybody would feel proud of themselves like you. I do and do not accept the superiority of anyone in this matter. But how often do we realise that we are merely a gift of the “whosoever” Almighty and there is nothing to be proud or sad about it. Hence I hasten to add that I am merely grateful to Him for His grace on me. I am not sure, if a donkey or a cow could have spoken in our language, “What would they have said”?
I wind up once again with my kindest regards to my esteemed readers.
Dear Dr. O. P. Sudrania,
That some person has written something does not justify or excuse one from the responsibility of checking the facts when using it in your text. Below I have given a partial list of the Bene Israel contribution to the evolution of Modern India and separated it from the Baghdadi contribution. Research is some thing that requires patience to bring out the truth & should not be subject to with one’s or another’s misconceptions & opinions.
I have in addition attached a few articles that might be of Interest to you on the career & achievements of a few of the BEne Israel I have mentioned below. & these are not based upon my opinion but on facts.
1. Bombay Islands was the personal Estate of Dr. Garcia De Orta given to him & later confiscated by the Portuguese because he was a Jew- He wrote the first Tractate on Indian Herbal Medicine – He Built the First Quita /European Style House on Bombay Island Which is Known as Bombay Castle & is still standing and is within the Confines of INS Angre in Bombay & is the Head-quarters of the Indian Navy Western Command.
Contribution of The Bene Israel Community of India
1. Mahatma Gandhi’s Personal Physician was a Bene Israel. Dr Erulkar
2. His Brother Another Erulkar was the Barrister that defended bothe Gandhi & Tilak when they were arrested by the British,
3. Vice Admiral Samson Commandant NDA & The First Chairman of the Bombay Shipyard when it started its conversion from as Naval Ship Repair Facility to a Shipbuilding Facily.
4. Leila Samson Padma Shree Principal/Director of Kalkshetra & Current Chief Censor of India.
5. Mai General Samson One of the Founders of DRDO.
5. Dr Miss Jhirad Padma Shree & Founder & Initiator of Womens Medicine in India.
5. Esther Abraham Padma Shree Sanskrit Sholar.
6. David Cheulkar Padma Shree -Actor
7. Nissim Ezekiel-Padma Shree Poet Laurette/Author
9. Joshua Benjamin- Chief Architect Govt. of India.
10. Ezra Kolet Joint Secretary and founder of the Ship Chandlers Organization in the Ministry of Transport.
11. Hanock Isaacson (Film name) actual name Hanock Isaac Satamkar a leading actor in Indian Movies of the 1930-40 era.
12. Bunny Reuben Film Director & Critic & Director of the Film Institute of India
13. Dr Eliezer Best Dean of the BJ Medical College in Ahmedabad.
14. Prof. Dr. Samuel Solomon Wakrulkar- Principal of Poona Agricultural College.
15. Esther David Author
16. First Indian Advocate General of Indian Navy Mr. Elliss Jhirad
17. First Provost Marshall of the Indian Navy Mr. Michael Samuel Bhastekar
18. Anne Samson Killekar Principal & Founder of Anjuman Islam Muslim Women’s Education School. started with 6 girls & the school grew to 3,000 girls in her term of office.
19. Prof Joseph Razpurkar -Author & Chair For Hebrew Studies in Bombay University.
20. Prof Ezekiel Moses Ezekiel Prof, Principal & Member of Asiatic Society.
21. Haeem Samuel Kehimkar Educationist, Author & Founder of the Israelite School later to be Renamed Sir Eli Kadoorie School.
22. The ORT Polytechnic in Bombay.
23. David Ezra Reuben Nowgaonkar Chief Justice Patna High Court.
24. Mis Rebecca Reuben Principal of the Sir Eli Kadoorie School.
25. Dr Elijah Moses Razpurkar- Mayor of Bombay.
Just a brief list which can run into several pages.
Contribution of The Baghdadi Jewish Community
1.Founder owners of the Sassoon Mills which after Independence was renamed United India Mills.
2. The Sasson Docks
3. A major Partner in the Building of The Gateway of India.
4. A Maor Contributor to The Building of one of the Wings of the Then Royal Institute of Science Bombay.
5. The Sasson Library.
6. The School for Rehabilitation & Technical Education of Boys.
7. The Sassoon Hospital in Poona where Mahatma Gandhi was operated for appendicitis
8. Bombay & Poona Landmarks like Magen Dacid Synagogue The Jacob, David & EE Sassoon Schools, The Knesset Eliyahu Synagogue The Lal Deval in Poona.
9. Lt. General Jack Jacob who was C-in-C Operations Eastern Command & took the actual surrender of Dhaka & was instrumental in the creation of the New Nation of Bangla Desh.
10. Albert Sassoon Founder & Chairman of the Bank of India (Note not the Reserve Bank)
Regards
Nissim Moses
Historian Bene Israel Heritage & Genealogy Research
Dear Dr. O. P. Sudrania ,
On all that is said here I agree with you. We are all grateful & thank the Almighty- who was, is & will be for his Kindness & In having created us as Human Beings. It does not Matter whether you call him by any name there is still only one with a multitude of names.
Just for Your information I was the Founder of The Liaison Office of Israel Aerospace Industries Office in India & the Initiator in The Defence Sales & Cooperation between India & Israel. In my term of Office I won 95 percent of the defence contracts signed between Israel & India totally more than $450 million a total of 19 contracts without loosing one. I initiated the first joint venture between the defence industries of the two countries. I have retired and have dedicated my retired life to Research & write about the Heritage of the Bene Israel of India. I have developed An Integrated Communal Family Tree of the Bene Israel which currently has more than 20,250 names several thousands of photographs & several hundreds of Bio Briefs going back to about 1650 the year (as calculated by the computer). The Diaspora Museum In Tel Aviv display my family tree data bank in their computer center for those researching their ancestry & heritage.
Regards
Nissim Moses
Dear Nissim Moses,
I am not quite with you, if I may pose this question to you with full respects? You are needlessly picking on me and showing off but you fail to address the real topic at hand. It only makes me feel sad. The topic is Castes in various religions and communities irrespectively. Instead of enquiring the original source who is your own caste or someway related closer if I am not wrong. I have provided the link. If you cannot inform your own caste people i.e. Jews themselves, I cannot accept your undue blame for it. I do not want to use hard words at this stage. You do seem to me fairly excited needlessly. I cannot be held accountable for your people’s mistakes.
May I ask you if the following link belongs to you? http://www.kulanu.org/india/nissim.php
“1. The Jews of India were never a part of the Indian Caste System.” I have two questions on your this comment extract. First you have not cared to read my article carefully and diligently. What makes you to shoot such erratic notion. Have I said that Jews were a part of Indian Caste System? Secondly, now I feel sad that a person of your standing, I should rather say outstanding, could be so casual to indulge in story telling which is, to my mind, irrelevant to the topic ab initio. I would have expected a more proactive conversation from a person of your calibre. I am really sorry. Your undue flow of adrenaline did make me worried and I did spend time on net to find out about you. I would have liked to be proud of you being born and brought in Bombay, but alas, I am so sad!
For the rest of your information provided by you, since it is irrelevant to my topic, I must apologise to brush it aside for the time being. Though I have a lot to react to. I shall perhaps write a column on it if my time permits.
As far as I am concerned, you do accept that castes in Jewish community does exist and I am thankful to you for that. Rest is not my problem for the time being. I thank you once again for your time spent on this blog. Indians have been exploited but the hospitality has never been acknoledged. You mention of Portuguese brutality but fail to acknoledge our curtesy. It is unfortunate.
Please do visit again with a little more relevant discussion. I am certainly concerned about the needless calumny against My Hindu community with one or the other pretext and like you, I do have my right to speak for myself. This is the main reason that I undertook my this project. I hope you do understand and get my point.
Both respectfully as well as regretefully but no malice,
Dr. O. P. Sudrania
Dear Dr.O.P Sudrania,
I would have preferredthis dialogue have been on a private basis by personal email between the two of us.but unfortunately you have selected it to be on the web. In fact I did try to send you an emailwith additional reference material for your information to this address but it just bounced back.
The site mentioned is not mine. If you could indicate to me who or which is the specific reference you are talking of in my community I can handle that too. I never pick on any one on a personal basis but only on a specific subject & handle that specifically. We both being from India have been subject to Imperial rule & the differentiations made then. Since then we have both gained national independence. & have come to realize that caste system is only an articially created social barrier to elate a few & depresslarge portions of the majority.Caste System and any reference to it belongs to the garbage can of history and In my opinion should be left there to Rest in Eternal Peace. Writing or referening or anaysing it is only going to cause a lot of ruffeled feathers whether one likes it or not.
Regards
Nissim Moses
“Caste System and any reference to it belongs to the garbage can of history and In my opinion should be left there to Rest in Eternal Peace. Writing or referening or anaysing it is only going to cause a lot of ruffeled feathers whether one likes it or not.” I am sorry to differ with yu here. Nothing personal.
Dear Mr Moses,
You are entitled to your opinion. To that extent, I welcome it and a proactive interaction is the reason to provide the comment box. I should only be foolish to think myself a Pundit. I am well aware of the problems of caste in Hinduism, but what the opportunists do not understand is its stark bitter reality.
It hurts when someone unnecessarily targets a helpless society, first for inflicting wounds, then sprinkle salt on it. I am well aware of the problem your nation is living with. Could you sit back, as per your contention? One has to face the reality, come what may. You will not be able to live for even a single day without the support of US.
Like you in Israel, India is surrounded by only enemies and you being Indian (I accept it), may be aware of that Hindus have no takers globally unlike Israel. You are a very intelligent man and I am sure, you will agree with me. How could one forget the pains of thousand cuts we are promised by LeT goons and scare us for a fight for thousand years. There are occasions when you have to rise and fight for.
Today we live in a very small world. What the leaders do not realise is that no one can get away with their sins. Look at US, how Obama is panting in Af/Pak to get out and saw another Vietnam in Iraq. Rex non potest piccare still operates, we like it or not. David Cameron has been honest enough to accept his nation’s inflicted wounds, will Obama do it? I doubt!
In last sixty odd years, millions have been butchered in this peninsula and the majority of them have been Hindus and their related diaspora. Indian partition was the gravest wund inflicted by the mighty, yet Britain declared it a peaceful transition. I have never forgiven Gandhi-Nehru for it.
Hindus have been taken for granted. People must accept this fact. You know that India aka Hindus, is still the most terrorised and persecuted nation. We simply watch it helplesly. Do you suggest me to sit idle like a coward? I am sure, a person of your high standing will rather suggest me to die a valiant’s death.
I do not hurt intentionally anybody and it is not in my blood to tolerate the intolerance endlessly. You being an Indian, would know the lesson taught by Lord Krishna to Arjun when he refused the fight. I believe in His teachings. You die only once, why not die bravely?
I have tried to be as respectful to you and as I should have. I am sorry that your mail culd nt reach me. I thank you for yur kind consideratin towards me.
With my highest regards to yur and your family and yur adopted country. I have enjoyed interacting with you. We shall react again. Life is too short and precious. This body is a perishable goods. Sooner or later, it has to be terminated.
Why don’t you write on this site about your religious ideas and beliefs? I shall love to read and enlighten myself. Just for a jest, you did tell me the second largest arms seller to India but I did not ask you the cost to procure it. It is India, laugh a while. Thanks once again. I must leave now
God bless
Dear Dr. O.P. Sudrania, Below I am Trying to send you my article on A Bene Israel Actor & The Jewish Contribution to Bollywood Might interest you..As You will See the Site is not capable of transfering the info to you. Also note I have a restricted website but I can only give an invitation to an email address & not to a website.
Regards
Nissim Moses
Hannock Isaacson
(Hannock Isaac Satamkar)
Portrait
of a
Bene Israel Icon of the Silent and Talkie Movie Era
and
The Jewish Contribution to the Establishment of The Movie Industry now known as Bollywood in India
By
Nissim Moses
Historian- Bene Israel Heritage & Genealogy Research
From the very beginning members of the Bene Israel and the Baghdadi Jewish Communities played a very important part in the development of the Indian Film industry which today is popularly known as Bollywood. They started in about the early 1930s in Bombay. Many of the actresses were of the Baghdadi community as a professional career for women was unheard of for supposedly moral reasons. The reason being, that most parents wanted their daughters to be married and did not want any reputation blemish, being transmitted on the rumor grapevine of the community. For Men it was another matter. Many of them earned National & International fame. One David Abraham Cheulkar was awarded a Padmashree (The Highest Civilian Award by the Government of India for Outstanding Contribution in a Field) for his acting in the movie “Boot Polish”. The Bene Israel functioned as directors, producers, actors, musicians, play writes, film critics, choreographers, owners of film laboratories & even distributors. Some of the actresses were earlier Miss India Title winners.
Samuel (Bunny) Joseph Reuben Nagaonkar
Herman (Emmanuel) Ezra Benjamin Kolatkar
David (Actor)) Abraham Cheulkar- Padmashree
The caste system is not only a problem in the Hindu culture but it is a crippling reality, people from different classes are segregated from each other. The treatment for the wealthy and privileged is hugely different from those who are poor. it is a sad reality that cannot be helped.
@ McKinley Johnson,
Thank you. Whereas I am inclined to agree with you partly, while disagreeing on the point that it is not just limited to Hindu culture, it is and has been a global issue. The sole intention of writing this series is to show and quantify this very issue. Caste is not just a phenomenon of Hindu culture as some people tend to look at it. Unfortunately you have proved my very contention. If you are sincere, apparently, kindly go through my entire series for a ;soul searching answer’. I hope your conscience will lead you to. It is more a problem for the colonial mindset and predatory proselytisation society than Hindu culture, respectfully.
Thanks once again for your kind response and do keep perusing the essence of the series.
From 1700 to 1953, India was plundered with 80% of all wealth taken to Europe.
Now Indians MUST KNOW THE LINEAGE OF NOAH, that Islam, Christianity and Jews belong to. They state that Noah had three sons, the first two were called SHEM, and JAPETH. The term Semitic in reference Arabs, is a ref back to Shem. Now the theory is this, Noahs first two sons, where considered Noble and Light Skinned. This is very important to Remember. Noah had a third son called HAM, and he was considered a Slave to the first two sons, and was Dark skinned as he would be identifiable as a slave. So Christian, jews, and Muslims who adhere to the Abrahamic faith, of the Middle east, of Adam, eve, Noah, moses. They beleive that from SHEM and JAPETH, light skinned became Europeans and Arabs, they beleived that from Shem would come Prophets and from Japeth would come Kings. Noahs third son, HAM, is considered to be EVERYONE else, African, Indian, Chinese, Native American, ie, Non-caucasion. Now this is the underlying reason to convert the world, islamic and christian slave trade was of children of Ham, or Non-caucasion. Mohamed is described MANY times as a white Caucasian with red tinged hair, hence the reason why some muslims dye their beard red. Now Europeans and Arabs or Christians and Muslims, convert others so the CONVERT himself, becomes a worker of either Europeans or Arabs. How? Conversion is nothing to do with, god but everything to do with using the name of god, or meaning of god. So a convert has to adopt European or Arabic, culture, lang, dress, history, theology, religion, food, diet, and festivals, as in the case of Muslim they are forbidden to leave, as was the case In chrisitanity, up until the lat 18the century.
So Africans, Indian, Chinese, where converted to a European or Arabic mindset. They were sold god but in reality where sold expansion, conversion, plunder as an act of FAITH, when it was Caucasian expansion. In europe over 10million european non believers where killed. In Europe the caste system is strict, every single Royal family in Europe descends from One royal house, of England. In the Uk and in every european government, it gives ten seats to Christian priests to sit on the council of the government. The peasant caste system of Europe is based on the Bible of Master and Slave, The bible never ONCE mentions ending slavery, in fact Christ states, a slave should follow his master to death. IN europe hundreds of Peasant revolts against the Christian slave master class system. In arabia, the Arabs consider themselves the owners of Islam, and the koran states, that non arabs are kafirs, and must be killed, converted or subdued. Non arab Muslims in Arabia are classed as Mawali, meaning a freed slave client of an arab, or an arab worker. So in arabia, no muslim is allowed to marry an arab women, or buy land, or work without an Islamic arab sponsor, which an Arab man is allowed to marry a non arab women. In Islam a Non arab muslim has NO rule over an arab.
So what about Indian caste system. First of all Genetics state, that caste was rigid during the onset of the Islamic invasion in which soceties closed themselves off from the incoming threats. Once islam had established some sort of rule, they stopped the movement of Hindus, hindus not allowed on horses, or not to walk on certain days, and all this led to the destruction of soceity. When the Christians come, they loot India with over 80% of all wealth taken to europe. Which then further plunged Indian soceity into poverty. SO India was looted into poverty today.
The christians and muslims never left india, but formed a front party called congress. In which they teach about dalits, the name doesnt exist in Indian history, and was only formed during the 19th century in a scottish missionary colledge. In south India they created dravidan term, and in north they created Aryan term. The reason they did this GOES, back to Noah. For they beleive that from noah in the middle east, came civilisation and development THROUGH the first sons of Noah, shem and japeth who are European and Arabs,, which can be further defined as Caucasions. When they invaded India, they realised that India was older than the middle east and that it was a migration out of India that are the roots of the Middle east. SO this was a big problem, going against their beleif that form the middle east civilisation started. SO to correct this mistake, they need a front story. This is called Aryan theory. Aryan theory demasked is Noahs theory. So the theory is that, from the middle east a dark dravidian tribe migrated to India, (children of ham), then some time after a light skinned aryan tribe from europe invaded india (children of shem and japeth, noahs first two sons) and enslaved the dravidians, or the children of shem and japeth, (caucasion), enslaved Ham, (Africans). This is basis of Aryan theory and the basis of caste, from the abrahamic version , that caste was Imposed on to people.
What really happened was the massive pludner of india, led to further and further poverty and hardships which led to the downfall of soceity and increase in oppresion. Now in india muslims and christians support dalit, dravidan, movements because THEY KNOW BEHIND THE SCENES that its Noahs theory. So they both push and support aryan/dravidian divide, because it weakens the roots of all indian, if everyone is fighting each other over history. So aryan theory is pushed by both christians and muslims, initiated by the Mecca and Vatican. SO god has nothign to do with either christianity or islam, but they use the name of god, to tap into the feeling of people.
From africa, to india, to china, to america, these places where plundered, looted and destroyed, then rebuilt to a western christian or islamic format. Caste became an issue when christianity and islam came into India, just as they tried to wipe out native african, america, chinese, and australian culture, they did the same in India. You must rememeber that muslims and christians CANNOT accept Hinduism as anything let alone as a faith, so all degradation was kept for Hinduism. Since india has a english abrahamic colonial education, the history of the past has been distorted beyond truth. History has been rewritten, first chapters of pludner, genocide, murder, occupation, slavery has been erased, and replaced with christian and islamic propaganda, to save face.
How can one talk about caste, without talking about 80% diversion of wealth to Europe? It makes NO SENSE. The Indian educaiton system is designed to dilute the past, and integrity of History. The reason they do this in india is to create an impression india has no history, legacy, origins, were just immigrants. This is the view of both Vatican and Rome.
Just a few points of evidence.
***Reich et al examined six Indo-European and Dravidian speaking groups (caste or tribe), andfound that their founder event dated back to about thirtygenerations back. Each generation is considered about18 to 20 years. Hence these castes were founded about 600years back. This figure is consistent with findings from historythat endogamous caste system started only during the latemedieval period in India (Basham:148; “It was only in latemedieval times that it was finally recognized that exogamy andsharing meals with members of other classes were quiteimpossible for respectable people.
*** indeed, nearly all Europeans — and by extension, many Americans — can trace their ancestors to only four mtDNA lines, which appeared between 10,000 and 50,000 years ago and originated from South Asia.”-Lluís Quintana-Murci,Vincent Macaulay,Stephen Oppenheimer,Michael Petraglia,and their associates
***”The genetics proves that castes grew directly out of tribe-like organizations during the formation of the Indian society.””Impossible to distinguish between castes and tribes since their genetics proved they were not systematically different.””Reconstructing Indian Population History”- David Reich, Kumarasamy Thangaraj, Nick Patterson, Alkes L. Price & Lalji Singh- 2009
****India had the world’s largest economy from the first to eleventh century, and in the eighteenth century, with a (32.9%) share of world GDP in the first century to (28.9%) in 1000 AD, from the eleventh century to the 1600 the Islamic Invasion of India took place, by 1700 AD with (24.4%).- Angus Maddison (The World Economy: A Millennial Perspective) – A Study of Groninen University, reveals that India’s share of the world income went from 24.4% in 1700, to a low of 3.8% in 1952, at the end of the British Empire.
****Irfan Habib in his study of the agrarian system of India, that in many parts of the? country, caste barriers were fluid, and the working classes formed a type of vast labour pool, from which specializations were formed as and when needed without consideration of caste.
****This? exogamy principle was unique to Hindus, as has been noted by Al-Biruni in about 1000 A.D. in the following words:“According to their marriage law it is better to marry a stranger than a relative. The more distant the relationship of a woman with regard to her husband, the better.”
****Veda (18.48):“O Lord! Please fill the brahmanas with light, kshatriyas with light, vaishyas with light and the shudras with light; and in? me fill the same light.”
****Indian labourers had higher earnings than their British counterparts? in the 18th century and lived lives of greater financial security, before the British destroyed the native industries”.there was no increase in India’s per capita income from 1757 to 1947″
****Vizagapatam, Brahmins and Vaishyas together? accounted for 47% of the students, Shudras comprised 21% and the other castes (scheduled) were 20%; the remaining 12% were Muslims. In Tinnevelly, Brahmins were 21.8% of the total number of students, Shudras were 31.2% and other castes 38.4%. In South Arcot, Shudras and other castes together comprised more than 84% of the students
****In medicine, out of a total of 194 students, only 31 were Brahmins, 59 were Shudras and 100 belonged to the other castes. Even subjects like metaphysics and ethics that we generally associate with Brahmin supremacy, were dominated by the other castes (62) as opposed to merely 56 Brahmin students. It bears mentioning that this higher education was in? the form of private tuition (or education at home), and to that extent also reflects the near equal economic power of the concerned groups.
Abrahamic.
****Mawali (Arabic:?????) is a term? in Classical Arabic? used? to address non-Arab Muslims.? It means client or slave worker of an Arab.? The term gained prominence in the centuries following? the early Arab Muslim conquests in the 7th century, as many non-Arabs such as Persians, Sikhs, Hindu, Buddhist, where? converted to Islam. Converts were? treated as second class? citizens by ruling Arab elite -? they continued to pay the? tax? required of nonbelievers and excluded from government.
****Genesis? 9:25-27:“Cursed be Canaan! The lowest of slaves will he be to his brothers. ‘Blessed be the? Lord, the God of Shem! May? Canaan be the slave of Shem’.”
*****Spanish pope, Alexander VI,” .. full; and free permission to invade, search out, capture and subjugate the Saracens and pagans and? any other? unbelievers and enemies of Christ wherever they; may be, as well as their kingdoms, duchies, counties, principalities and other properties and to reduce their persons into perpetual slavery.”
*****“Shem, the son of Noah was the father of the Arabs, the Persians,? and the Greeks; Ham was the father of the Black Africans; and Japheth was the father of the Turks and of Gog and Magog who were cousins of the Turks. Noah prayed that the prophets and apostles would be descended from Shem and kings would be from Japheth. He prayed that the African’s color would change so that their descendants would be slaves to the Arabs and Turks.”Al-Tabari, Vol. 2, p. 11, p. 11
*****Slaves, obey your masters here on earth with fear and respect.Ephesians 6:5-9
*****However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. ? You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (25:44-46 NLT)
****Colossians 3:22 Slaves, obey your? earthly masters in everything.
****In 1705, the Virginia General”All servants imported and brought into the Country…who were not Christians in their native Country…shall be accounted and be slaves. All Negro, mulatto and Indian slaves within this dominion…shall be held to be real estate. If any slave resist his master…correcting such slave, and shall happen to be killed in such correction…the master shall be free of all punishment…as if such accident never happened.”
*****Arabs are the most noble people in lineage, the most prominent, and the best in deeds. We were the first to respond to the call of the Prophet. We are Allah’s helpers and the viziers of His Messenger. We fight people until they believe in Allah. He who believes in Allah and His Messenger has protected his life and possessions from us. As for one who disbelieves, we will fight him forever in Allah’s Cause. Killing him is a small matter to us.Al-Tabari, Vol. 9, p. 69
****If the child is not of the race of Arabs, then he is definitely an owned slave according to the scholars, when A’isha (Muhammad’s wife) had a maid-slave who was an Arab, Muhammad said to A’isha, `Set this maid free because she is from the children of Ishmael.'”
Ibn Timiyya, Vol. 31, pp. 376-377
Just a few examples of the IMMENSE data on such slave intentions. Caste was raped by Christians and Muslims, today they BLAME and transfer that onto Hindu. They hide the plunder of Indian wealth, the destruction of Indian industries, and to hide that they BLAME IT ALL ON CASTE.
Know truth.
I wonder Who is the author of this distorted Garbage. He Seems to have forgotten or does not now history or is intentionally distorting it that Pesach (Passover) is the First Festival in any religion of Freedom. The Jews were Slaves for about 400 years in Egypt till Moses brought them out of Bondage. There were no Muslims or Arabs or Christians then at the time of Noah. Stretching the truth in the direction this author is trying does great disservice to of intellectual scholarship.
Nissim Moses
Nissm moses, a Christian convert, who now has to adhere to european ideology, theoleogy, name, faith, history, origins, festivals, in other words Europeans convert in the same way Arabs do, they covnert to make the PERSON push through european ideology SOLD TO FOLLOWERS AS FAITH.
When it only one moment, to learn history, and see how Its a politcal expansion, USING the name of god. It happend in Africa, America, South America, India, China and Australia,.
So MOSES from India, with a name originated from Middle east, from the ABRAHAMIC TRIBE.
Moses can you give JUST ONE EXAMPLE where you think i have gone wrong?
Are you saying that their is no Noah lineage of the world? Or could it be your not told of it.
Thanks. The first SECT, was Judaism, From that a corrupted ROMAN elite version took place, using their messiah, as YE-ZEUS, a combination of YESHUA, (jews) and ZEUS, the greek god. Which produces, Ye-zeus, or Jezuz. Now the Idol of Rome is a Human Sacrifice, as was the tradition throughout Europe. Note not one writer of Christ age, mentions the man, ITS PURE FICTION. Using the abrahamic concept of JUDAISM, and them applying that to Christianity, during the COUNCIL OF NICEA, where christianity was literally created. Now Arabia-Felix, was a Roman colony, in which Khalidja, the christian wife of Mohamed, first convinced him that he was a prophet.
Hence ISLAM and CHRISTIANITY beleive in the same thing. Adam, eve, noah, moses. They both beleive that came form the first two sons of NOAH, shem and japeth.
The term semitic comes from SHEM. lol.
So please MOSES, can you give just one example.
Pesach is a Babylonian tradition, from which the Jews ultimately derive from. Christianity and Islam was created by an Elite tribe of Caucasian, their imposed their new administration, called Religion throughout the world, from Africa, to central Asia, to india, to china, to America.
Their was a reason for this expansion. Both faiths, promote CONVERSION as an act of god, when its nothing more than an act of wealth expansion.
Just read the Christian ideology of the day, and its no DIFFERNT TO ISLAM.
So moses, please give PROOF, EXAMPLES, ANALYSE what i have said and then reply with a decent comment, to counter it.
****The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who make
empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a
covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of
Hell.” St. Augustine, De Genesi ad Litteram, Book II, xviii, 37.
****As for your male and female slaves whom you may have: you may buy male and
female slaves from the nations that are round about you. You may also buy from
among the strangers who sojourn with you and their families that are with
you,who have been born in your land; and they may be your property.”Leviticus
25:44
****”We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is&;
absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to; be subject to
the Roman pontiff.” Pope Boniface VIII, Bull Unun Sanctum,
****Romanus Pontifex, issued by Pope Nicholas V; to King Alfonso V of Portugalin
1452, declared war against; all non-Christians throughout the world, and specifically sanctioned and promoted the conquest,colonization, and exploitation of non-Christian nations and their
territories.”This document also declares: the subjugation of the native peoples
of the NewWorld was legally sanctioned.
Hence the reason why America, South America, Africa, Australia are christian lands, because christian Taliban slavery has been in operation for 1000years!.
Slavery was established by decree of Almighty God…it is; sanctioned in the
Bible, in both Testaments, from Genesis to Revelation…it has existed in all
ages, has been found among thepeople of the highest civilization, and in nations
of the highest proficiency in the arts.” Jefferson Davis, President, Confederate
States of America
Christ just like Allah, does not accept atheist,pagan, jew, gays, hindu, budhist, sikh or jain.
You are hidding under the Psedonym of one dharma because you are probaby ashamed to disclose your true identity. I do not intend to get dragged into a discussion either pro or critical of any religion with a psedonym. All that you have shown & quoted are ancient passages in the scriptures of the various religions which over the hundreds of years they have existed have evolved into generally very tolerant religions. Yes people & even countries made mistakes in their philosophies & actions but they have also had the courage to correct them & create a co-habitable international society. Yes there are still societies that are undergoing evolution today but that does justify dragging out outdated literature & religous texts in the way you are doing. Iwas born in India & have lived in India for the better part of my life & have great respect for this great nation but I also say it takes time to right the wrongs of the past eg discrimination & untouchability still existence all over India. But I am very Happy to see that the Government of India in making great strides & efforts to eliminate this stigma even though it has been codified in Hindu religious texts. Let us work of solving problems & not crying over past errors.
Let us work of solving problems & not crying over past errors – You do that BY STUDYING THE PAST.
I know for a FACT, that the world was divided up and enslaved due to Noah theory. This is a legacy of 1000years. So the REASON why they promote ARYAN theory in India, because its a masked form of Noah theory. If you want to view how ABSURD the ideology is then please read the following. In south India, the Christians say, you where enslaved by white aryans from outside India, who forced caste onto you, (note, caste has been proven to be native development between guilds, and sects) and the way you must end this slavery is by leaving Hindusim and Joining christianity, but they dont tell them of the Christian slave trade of the world, the most barbaric chapter in HUMAN HISTORY. So they say to South Indian, convert, hinduism is not your faith, you where enslaved by aryans, and you must follow a man who is white, blonde haired, blue eyed, aka an ARYAN!..lol
The problem is the average Indian does not, have the access the VAST knowledge of history, to make an informed decision, so Christian Converts or European employees, use EVERY TRICK in the book to convert others. Remember conversion is more than god, its ALIGNING YOURSELF to a foriegn ideology, culture, name, history, origins, in other words a duplication of yourself.
People like you talk about untouchability, without understanding how India was PLUNDERED 80% of its wealth, on which world does that make sense, or how Chrisitan abused, tortured, raped Millions of NON WHITE EUROPEANS AND BELEIVERS. In America just a 3% drop in GDP causes mass poverty, oppression and division, now in India over the past 200years, DIRECTLY UNDER CHRISTIAN OCCUPATION, india went from a First world power to a 3rd rate power. That has nothing to do with caste, or anything else, but SOLELY down to a Christian occupation of India, Africa, America. So when you talk of caste, PLEASE, be intellectual, India was looted into pvoerty, which causes oppression.Over 100 Peasant, serf caste uprising throughout europe, where the poor rose up against the rich, and the rich pushed them back down. The christian massacre of European NON christians, the slave trade, the spanish inquistion, the goa inquisition on and on, the dark ages of Europe is DIRECTLY down to the rising of CHRISTIANITY…It was the CHURCH who forbid science as an act of Devil worship.
Christianity, Islam an Abrahamic faith, 100% DOES NOT ACCEPT ANYONE ELSE, APART FROM THEIR OWN IDEOLOGY. In other words for your EUROPEAN RELIGION to change, WE MUST HIT IT HARD WITH HISTORICAL FACT……..otherwise, we will still get Indian Christian Converts who go to church and degrade their ancestors, past, culture, traditions, then walk past mandirs pretending to be good.
We cannot accept SUCH BEHAVIOR. God is used and hijacked in Abrahamic faiths so people carry out MISSION/aries, they happily greet hindus, budhist etc, but soon as their back is turned or when they walk into church or mosque they are attacking them. This is we cant Accept.
Most Indian start the argument by accepting that christianity has SOME BASIS, i dont.I know for a fact, that christianity and islam are CAUCASION ELITE EXPANSIONIST FAITHS, in which god is used to sell a mission to followers. That mission is to line the pockets of the rich, by using the faith of the people. Everyone know of a god, a meaning of god, or even a perception of god, whether you beleive or not. So European come into India, convert them with a distorted history, story, ethics, morals, dont tell of the slave trade, genocide, torture, the european then tell these converts to go into more villages and town, in essense employees or workers of Europeans, to promote chris, and convert more people into a european ideology VIA christianity, in which the convert has to adopt a european framework, lang, history, theology, culture, in effect a duplicate, not an equal a duplicate to take orders and action. So while the poor Indian covnerts are pushed, then these People are attacked for promoting hatred against the native people, culture, faith, their own roots, in essense, and what does European do….”LOOK OUR CHRISTIANS ARE BEING ATTACKED”, while they sit in their rich, plush, mansions, in the west, directing poor hungry starving Indian by using god to their own benefit!
So i would actually state, that NO DIALOGUE CAN EVER TAKE place, between Dharmic faiths and Abrahamic faiths, UNLESS, Christianity and Islam, from the middle east, DECLARE TO THE WORLD, THAT THEIR ARE MANY PATHS TO THE ONE?
Now moses, is The vatican, or Mecca, going to say that Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism and Sikhism are as valid a path to the devine as their faith?
Your answer moses? Will be very generic and very diluted, because deep down YOU KNOW FOR A FACT, CHRISTIANITY DOES NOT ACCEPT ANYONE ELSE, JUST LIKE ISLAM.
So we have a BIG PROBLEM, on one side we have dharmic faiths, which state more than one path, to the one god, then we have abrahamic faiths that say their is only ONE PATH, and you must submit or else……This comes form the Highest seats within the Vativan and Mecca.
SO moses, my suggestion to you, is GIVE US PROMISE THAT EUROPEAN AND ARAB ELITE, IN MECCA AND VATICAN, accept that our faiths, hindu, buddhist, sikh and jain are part of the same path to the god!
Then we can work out the problems much better and easily. Until that time, you will get followers, saying christ loves etc etc, but the actual faith, does not support such claim WHAT SO EVER.
Noahs first two sons, who are european and arabs, described as light skinned, where entitlted to enslave the children of ham, who are africans, Indians, chinese, native americans….
In other words, White Caucasions vs the world. The racist material of light skinned people is in both Islam and Christianity, because Arabic elite are White caucasion.
Mohamed was a white man!.
—
Volume 1, Book 3, Number 63:
Narrated Anas bin Malik:
While we were sitting with the Prophet in the mosque, a man came riding on a camel. He made his camel kneel down in the mosque, tied its foreleg and then said: “Who amongst you is Muhammad?” At that time the Prophet was sitting amongst us (his companions) leaning on his arm. We replied, “This white man reclining on his arm.” The man then addressed him, “O Son of ‘Abdul Muttalib.”
—
Volume 4, Book 56, Number 744:
Narrated Isma’il bin Abi Khalid:
I heard Abii Juhaifa saying, “I saw the Prophet, and Al-Hasan bin ‘Ali resembled him.” I said to Abu- Juhaifa, “Describe him for me.” He said, “He was white and his beard was black with some white hair. He promised to give us 13 young she-camels, but he expired before we could get them.”
—
Volume 2, Book 17, Number 122:
Narrated ‘Abdullah bin Dinar:
My father said, “I heard Ibn ‘Umar reciting the poetic verses of Abu Talib: And a white (person) (i.e. the Prophet) who is requested to pray for rain and who takes care of the orphans and is the guardian of widows.”
—
Volume 2, Book 17, Number 141:
Narrated Anas bin Malik
The Prophet never raised his hands for any invocation except for that of Istisqa’ and he used to raise them so much that the whiteness of his armpits became visible.
Why do Some muslim dye their hair and beard red?
Because beleive it or not, Mohameds lineage, comes from Northern Europe.
The Nordic-looking people are usually confined to the social stratum from which civil officers and religious men are drawn, and it is more than a coincidence that the acknowledged descendants of the Prophet are lighter-skinned and show greater evidence of blondism than the rest of the Arab population.”
[Coon (1939) 408-409.]
“The ordinary city Arabs are little different from their pastoral and agricultural brethren, but this rule does not apply to the aristocratic families. These merchant-princes are sometimes blond, and of Nordic appearance.”
[Coon (1939) 484.]
The Prophet Muhammad (AD 570-632), the founder of the Islamic religion, was apparently fair-skinned; Umar, described the Prophet thus: “his face was not fat nor rounded; it was white tinged with red“. [Guillaume (1987) 726.]
“Red-hair is still honoured amongst Moslems as the Prophet Mohammed himself was reported to have red hair.”
[von Schwerin (1960) 27.]
During her lifetime Aisha, the Prophet’s beloved wife, gained the epithet humayra, a word which has been translated as “light,” “reddish,” or “fair,” but whose meaning can be most accurately rendered as “blonde.” [Baltzer (1934) 206; Lewis (1990) 36; Vollers (1910) 91.] Subsequently, she has become known to the Islamic peoples as “Aisha the Blonde.” [Günther (1930) 168.]
Abu Bakr, the father of Aisha, and thus, the father-in-law of Muhammad, was the first Caliph of Islam (AD 632-634). He was slenderly built, and white-skinned; also, he dyed his grey beard red, in an attempt to gain a more youthful appearance. [Günther (1930) 163.]
Caliph Ali (AD 656-661), a first cousin and son-in-law of Muhammad, was also renowned for his blond hair, as were his descendants, who founded the Shi’ite branch of Islam. [Grant (1981) 84-85; Lewis (1990) 36.]
It would also appear that many of the numerous and diverse rulers of Moorish Spain, were racially Nordic; the Spanish historian Enrique Sordo, informs us that:
“Most of the caliphs were fair or ginger-haired with blue eyes, which seems to show a preponderance of Berber or Germanic blood.” [Sordo (1962) 24.]
ISLAM IS A WHITE CAUCASION FAITH, JUST LIKE CHRISITIANITY……
Still hiding behind a psedonym. What are you afraid about. I will not comment upon the Philosophy of another religion. All I can say is that Please Refer to the document of mutual understanding signed between the Chief Rabbi of Israel & the Hindu Sancharyas & Achraryas to which I happen to be a signatory in Jun 2007. If you do not disclose your identity I shall not respond to your emails any more & if you continue I shal remove myself from this website.
What is so important about my name? The content, the argument, the ideology, the history, the truth remains. Philiosophy is the BEDROCK of humanity. It has created wars, famine, development, progress,
And actually its was the Torah, that started the Blood letting of Human sacrifices for god. It is the Torah, that defines the Abrahamic concept of God throughout Christianity and Islam.The Torahs view of god is a vengeful, judgmental god, and in no way do their accept Indian ideology.The difference, Jews dont convert, Christians and Muslims do at every chance. The reason why Christianity and Islam, attack Judaism because they are the original sect, Both establish their rule with the demise of Jews, both christianity and islam state they REPRESENT Abraham and not Jews.
So what is MUTAL UNDERSTANDING? If Jews state that Hinduism is as valid a path as their own, or that Hinduism is a path of god, then their is MUTUAL UNDERSTANDING. If its a case of we will listen to Hindu Sancharyas, while in Synagogue we will continue to attack their ideology, their gods, their beleifs, then i think its pointless. Then it only serves as a tool of degradation.
My name can be anything, but the comment will be the same.
Krishna.
I would just like one clarification with you. Does Islam, Christianiy, Judaism, its history, sects, literature, people of note, historical aspects from one origins of the middle east, representing Abraham, over 2000years, who claim lineage from Noahs first two sons lead to the conclusion that Islam, Christianiy, Judaism are TOLERANT and accepting of others paths.
Does Christianity or Judaism ideology accept Indian faiths? If you cant answer such a trivial question, if makes me wonder of your intentions of creating dialogue.
I know, Hindus will say we accept all people from what ever religion they come from and they wont degrade their believes. But in Judaism and Christianity do they have such a belief that Hinduism is acceptable according to their own guidelines?
If you cant answer this, then everything you do trying to create dialogue end up as nothing but a veiled attack on Hinduism, because you REFUSE to a) accept Hinduism b) out-rightly reject it for fear of being classed as intolerant.
So you could create a dialogue that on the facade seems good, Judaism welcoming Hinduism, but that could be an attempt to soft convert, with most Jews believing that Hinduism is the work of the devil, as per Torah ideology, but are open to talks. That i dont consider anything.
For any dialogue to take place to make any real change, Jewish leaders must state openly, that Hinduism is a valid path to god. Its Philosophy that has defined both India and the Middle East, you take that away, you have nothing.
IF THEY CANT DO THAT……then at least we know, that any dialogue we have will be a facade.
Mr.one Dharama,
I am Hindu. But,I endorsed with Moses’s views.Messenger Moses is not christian he is not even jews. He belongs Isreal tribe. Obviously,Moses is not christain.
I think, unfortunately the essence of whole issue is neither religion nor any singular prophet. Issue was caste and only caste. With due respect, Mr Moses being a Jew, has shifted to Israel and even though he is living in India, his main interest is “Israel and Jews”, not India or Hindu or its culture. Mr Moses did use an escapist phrase earlier in this thread that …I am also Indian…! I intentionally bypassed it to avoid unnecessary polemical war of words.
Who is/was Jew, Christian, Muslim, Mohammad, Sikh etc is not the issue. Let us please concentrate on the issue, “Caste is not a Hindu business but it has been imposed on Hindus…”. Rest can be discussed separately in other threads.
Dear Sudrania Sir,
Any way, you slained Glolith.Long times ,Buddhisam,christianity and Islam using caste weapon against Hindusiam whenever they are not able to face argument.Their last weapon gone.Now only,argument.In argument ,none can defeat HIndus. Hereafter,glorious of Hindusiam again certaintely come in Globe.Really Hinudus indebted you indeed.
mani,
I am sorry, but I must familiarise myself with your mani English, “slained Glolith”. What exactly do you mean?
However your needless argumentative polemics do prove my point that Caste is not a Hindu problem but it has been imposed. When they cannot compete verbally, they whine. When they can slay and as they have done for centuries and millennia, Hindus had suffered it silently. If I write more truth, it will hurt because truth is bitter. You keep whining and incessantly prove my point. Your lament makes me satisfied, with proof.
Hi,
you ridicule my style of writing. I visited so many times new age Islam(Muslim website) and given comments sometimes with spelling mistake.But,they won’t complain eventhough they are very good writers than you.you must learn from you.The term supposed to be Goliath.you are not probably not known Bibilical story David and Goliath.However,As I hindu, I give salutations to you for breaking the myth “caste only problem in Hinduisam”
sorry again spelling mistake “you must learn from you” supposed to be you must learn from them.
Hmm,so alryt!Just concentrate on occupational caste issue!Not abrahmic faiths n their beliefs nw!First of all Mr.writer u said that jews have castes bagdadi,bele israel n that cochin jew etc!Bt as u knw n every one else here that jews live in western world n in israel in millions!!Why they dont have occupational caste system among them there? N even like bele israrl n cochin jews lives in different regions of south india so they look like diffrent sections or urbanised tribal gps within same religion!They are not occupational caste !!n u r talking about rchristians too that they have occupational caste system in south india!!Ok we can agree maybe!!bt ther are 35 percent human beings as christians globally,why dont they a uniform occupational caste system globally?Like hindu society in india n nepal have n why dont they say that brahmins or their clergy was born from Noah’s or abrahams or jesus ‘s mouth while sudras from feet as hindu so scriptures proudly say that brahmins were born out of brahma’s mouth n sudra(obc n sc) out of feet?? N why hindus cant remove thier caste status or casteist belief even after converting to another faith??As a high caste hindu i do feel ashamed of my self that how hypocrate n fact distorters we are!