Comments on: Hindu Survival and Buddhist Disappearance During Medieval India http://www.chakranews.com/hindu-survival-and-buddhist-disappearance-during-medieval-india/1460 World Dharma News: Hinduism, Sikhism, Buddhism and Jainism News and Insight. Tue, 04 Jun 2013 09:34:41 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.5.1 By: Satya http://www.chakranews.com/hindu-survival-and-buddhist-disappearance-during-medieval-india/1460/comment-page-1#comment-7979 Satya Thu, 06 Oct 2011 15:49:41 +0000 http://www.chakranews.com/?p=1460#comment-7979 This History should be taught in schools.. Each n every one of us should know this n feel proud of our ancestors who fought for centuries for this Great Nation !!
@Sandeeo Thanx for the article..

]]> By: Girdhar http://www.chakranews.com/hindu-survival-and-buddhist-disappearance-during-medieval-india/1460/comment-page-1#comment-6577 Girdhar Mon, 05 Sep 2011 08:33:43 +0000 http://www.chakranews.com/?p=1460#comment-6577 @TruthwillShine : Those are some interesting details. Perhaps you can write an article on it? :)

]]> By: THEtruthwillSHINE http://www.chakranews.com/hindu-survival-and-buddhist-disappearance-during-medieval-india/1460/comment-page-1#comment-6553 THEtruthwillSHINE Sun, 04 Sep 2011 01:16:29 +0000 http://www.chakranews.com/?p=1460#comment-6553 Latest researcheshave clarified most of the issues which were of vital importance to India. Oppenheimer (2003) and Metspalu (2004) on the basis of DNA studies showed that Indiaoccupied centre-space of human evolution and dispersal. Metspalu et al reaffirmed that “Southern Coastal Route” to India was suggested by the phylogeography of mtDNA haplogroup M. The oldest Eurasian mitochondrial DNA lineage is M. Metspalu noted that ‘M’ is virtually absent from North Africa and Near East.Metspaluand his colleagues explained:“It is in the South Asia that local branches of the mtDNA tree(haplogroups given in the spheres) arose (circa 40,000 – 60,000 B.P.); and from there theywere further carried into the interiors of the continents of Asia and Europe. Wells et al (2001) to suggest that R1a (M17), and R2 whichis also found in India and Central Asia alike, are Aryan DNAs. He suggested that Aryans carrying R1a DNA entered Europe and India from Central Asia. But, onthe basis of a large study (Sahooet al , 2006, p. 845), they declared that the Central Asianorigin of sub-haplogroup R1a and Aryans cannot be substantiated at all on any account of fact.
Another team working on the same topic included Sengupta, King, Cavalli-Sforza, Underhilland colleagues. They showed that R (especially R1a1 and R2) diversity in India is indigenousin origin and does not support hypothesis of immigration from Central Asia or anywhere outside. R1a prevalence is not only high in Indo-European speaking Punjab, south Pakistanand Ganga Valley, but also in Chenchu and Koya tribes of south India (Kivisild et al.2003).Oppenheimer (2003) also had supported Indian origin of R1a which is also called M17 in genetic circles. He wrote, “And sure enough we find highest rates and greatest diversity of the M17 line in Pakistan, north India, and eastern Iran, and low rates in the Caucasus. M17 isnot only more diverse in South Asia than in Central Asia but diversity characterizes itspresence in isolated tribal groups in the south, thus undermining any theory of M17 as amarker of a ‘male Aryan Invasion of India.’ Study of the geographical distribution and thediversity of genetic branches and stems again suggests that Ruslan, along with his son M17,arose early in South Asia, somewhere near India”.Finally Underhill and colleagues (2009) presented a detailed study of R1a lineages.
They found that R1a is oldest in India. This lineage started expanding from Gujarat about 16,000years back. By 14,000 years back or earlier, it reached the Ganga Valley and Indus Valley.Then people carrying R1a genes migrated out of India, through Afghanistan and Tajikistan,reaching Central Asia. From Central Asia they entered East Europe. They inhabited thePontic-Caspian area. Then they populated those areas which are inhabited today by Slavic and Baltic speaking people.Genetics today rules out any possibility of any significant migration from Central Asia toIndia, and supports regular migration from India to Central Asia in all ages of humanprehistory. A large number of lineages of Indian origin R1a, R2, H, F*, C5, L etc. are foundin the Central Asia, but Central Asian lineages are not found in India. The HIV protective gene is found in the Central India, but not found in India. This rules out Central Asianmigration into India.Other group suggested that J2 was a marker of the Dravidian speakers of the WestAsia (Elam region) to north India, who were master farmers, and who developed Mehrgarhand Indus farming societies. None of the two conjectures were taken seriously, yet itbecame a common belief in the genetic circles that J2 is West Asian in origin and arrivedinto India with farming. Lately, J2 (M172) lineage has been studies in India in detail. Its study in India shows that itsfrequency is 19% in Dravidian speaking castes, and only 11% in Aryan speaking castes.Among the tribes, its frequency is 11%.Hence its arrival through northwest Indian corridorinto India is ruled out.
Lately, J2 (M172) lineage has been studies in India in detail. Its study in India shows that itsfrequency is 19% in Dravidian speaking castes, and only 11% in Aryan speaking castes.Among the tribes, its frequency is 11%.Hence its arrival through northwest Indian corridorinto India is ruled out. Because it was found that in the northwest India its frequency is less than that in south Indian caste population. Its good presence in all segments of Indian society proves that either this haplogroup originated in India, or this haplogroup is fixed from very old days in India, possibly since Pleistocene, and not just 8,000 years back. Sengupta et al (2006) found that the haplogroup J2 had a quite high variance, and hence deep time-depthin Indian tribes and castes too. Moreover the frequency is higher in the Dravidian speaking south Indians (19%) than the Indo-European speaking north Indians (11%). This destroys the Aryan migration into India from West Asia hypothesis of Bellwood (2003 and 2005)!! The inference what we can derive from Sengupta and colleagues study’s data is that J2 haplogroup originated in India during Last Glacial Maximum, and migrated out of India when climate permitted.This means an early settlement and insidious origin of J2 in India.Moreover, there are other DNA lineages found in good numbers in West Asia like R1*, R1b3,J*, J2f, I, G and E which are in total more than 53% population of west Asia. These arevirtually absent from India (Sahoo, p. 844). Had people migrated from West Asia to India,these haplogroups would also have arrived into India. This evidence proves that J2 did notarrive from West Asia, because no lineage can ever migrate without other lineages alsomigrating along with it from the place of origin or expansion. On the other hand nearly all of the Indian male lineages like F*, L1, H (M-69), K2, C5, C*, R1a (M-17) etc, are found in West Asia, proving a definite Indian migration to West Asia. Sengupta et al noted that frequency and variance of J2b2 are very high in Uttar Pradeshnear Nepal boarder. Regarding place of maximum frequency and variance of J2b2, they remind, “It should be noted that numerous Mesolithic sites have been observed in thisregion (Kennedy, 2000).”Sengupta’s and Trivedi’s studies certainly indicate that lineage J2 originated in India.I repeat Sengupta et al (2006) found that the haplogroup J2 had a quite high variance, and hence deep time-depthin Indian tribes and castes too. Moreover the frequency is higher in the Dravidian speaking south Indians (19%) than the Indo-European speaking north Indians (11%). This destroys the Aryan migration into India from West Asia hypothesis of Bellwood (2003 and 2005)and YOUR argument.J2b, R1a and R1b originated and migrated out of India to Iran and from there to West Asia–more markedly to the Fertile Crescent. This finding becomes more relevant in light of latest archaeological findings .
Not only Sahoo’s but all recent works have completely ruled out the possibility that L1 is a marker of West Asianorigin of Dravidian speaking people of India. Current opinion is that L1 is of Indian origin andis well distributed in castes and tribes of both north and south India. J2b, R1a and R1b originated and migrated out of India to Iran and from there to West Asia–more markedly to the Fertile Crescent (Kurdistan,Turkey and Levant). This finding becomes more relevant in light of latest Achaeological findings which show presence of Pottery Neolithic in the Ganga Valley in India at about9,000 to 10,000 years before present, i.e. at least 3000 years before West Asian PotteryNeolithic culture (Sharma 1978; Tewari 2006, 2008; Govt. of UP Communique). At that very time (9,000 ybp) we get Non-Pottery Neolithic in western part of India (now Pakistan) atMehrgarh, which was supported by well trained artisans and domesticated cattle.(Jarrige1984). Okaayy Seraphicsongs, The genetics alone disprove YOU and confirm my assertion that Indian civil soceity, government, and education where created by a racist colonial dictatorship, which created an education with an ethos to affirm euro centric ideology. We have discussed genetics, now lets look at the first domestication of amimals and plants to reconfirm my stance! and to PROVE you the bigot following colonial racism as normal behaviour.Fuller (2006) claims that there were several independent centres of plant domestication within the Indian peninsula by indigenous peoples. Fuller concedes an earlierand independent rice-Neolithic in Ganga Valley and western Orissa.Loftus et al (1994) came out with formidable genetic data provingan independent and indigenous domestication of cow in India, which was later proved by further DNAstudies. Since then a large number of studies have supported this. The latest among suchworks is that of Hiendleder
et al (2008), which re-confirmed that there are mainly twomatrilineal populations of domesticated cows in Eurasia. One is of Indian ancestry called Zebu or Bos indicus, the other is supposedly of West Asian origin called Bos taurus.Independent domestication of cow and bull in India implied an independent origin of Indian farming culture too. A recent study of DNA of Zebu by Chen (2009) has shown that Bos indicus or Zebu had been domesticated only in India, and not at any other place, ruling out all skepticism in the matter, and proving that it was only after full domestication in India, that Zebu migrated to other parts of the world.Freeman et al (2006) found that Bos indicus was introduced into Africa by sea route and notthrough Suez.Moreover Indian cow has been found in Malagasy, which is accessible onlyby sea. On the basis of these, and many other facts, Zeder (2006) claims that India was the place of origin of the first global economy.
Ibeagha-Awemu (2005) found that the genetic variability of Indian cows in Africa is fargreater than that of African local or taurine cows, especially in Nigeria and Cameroon. High variability within Indicine cow genes in Africa indicates a very old migration from India to Africa, before domestication of taurine cow.Thus time of introduction of Indian Zebu into Africa should be earlier than the molecular date of domestication of taurine cow in Africa,about 22,000 years back. Migration of Indian humans and Indian cows in large numbers to the Eastern Horn of Africa at 22,000 ybp, and not via West Asia. Mitochondrial DNA studies have shown that pig, although evolved 500,000 years back in thewild form in the Southeast Asia (which was a single piece of land then), its one branch came to India long back. Then this branch radiated from India into many parts of the world in itswild form. It was from this wild stock of Indian radiation, that pigs have been domesticatedat several places in the world independently, the two most important and oldest being Southeast Asia and India.Bellwood (1995) diagnosed that water buffalo was domesticatedfor the first time in India in Orissa and Jharkhand area (he actually wrote Bihar instead of Jharkhand, because then Jharkhand was a part of Bihar).Kumar (2007) found, on the basis of DNA studies, that buffalo was domesticated in India 6,500 years back, and from here it migrated to Southeast Asia and South China.Badr (2000) found a rich diversity of barley varieties in the sub-Himalayan region. Diversity isan indicator of place of origin. Morell and Clegg (2007), on the basis of DNA analysis suggested that there were two centers of domestication of barley, one in the Fertile Crescent and the other probably 1500 to 3000 kilometers to the East in western India.This study also indicated that although, the European varieties of barley originated from the Fertile Crescent variant, the eastern nations received barley breeds from Indian domestication. This leads us to conclude that barley was locally domesticated in the Indus Valley area in circa 10,000 B.P .DNA research by Azhanguvel and Komatsuda (2007) further indicated that there were eastern and western two independent centers of barley domestication in Eurasia. Saisho(2007)found the eastern edge of Iran plateau was the site of domestication of eastern barley.Jones (2008) finally clarified after studying the Ppd-H1 gene of barley fromEuropean farm lands that the agricultural variant of barley which has “flowering time adaptation”, the essential adaptation for agriculture, did not originate in West Asia or the Fertile Crescent, but further east, probably in western part of India.Sang(2009) reviewed all scientific papers presented concluded that at about 10,000 B.P, barley cultivation started in western India independently from any external influence.
Mice have travelled with the first farmers, and their migration is the EXACT same as the first farmers.Groves (1984) found that many types of mice and rats had been introduced into IslandSoutheast Asia from India together with rice agriculture.Mus caroli, Mus cervicolor and Rattus argentiventer are found in Southeast Asia north of Malay. They are invariably restricted to wet rice growing areas.Mus dunni , a small mice, native of northeast India and Rattus nitidus, a native of Nepal, are rice-field pests of Indonesia. These all species originated in India.Mus domesticus migration out of India to West Asia must be a direct result of Neolithic migration. Date of migration of Indian male lineage J2b from northern Ganga Valley to West Asia (13,800 yearsback)coincides with that.Mus domesticus reached the Eastern Mediterranean basin inabout 10,000 ybp.The route map of mice migration as mapped by the geneticists is exactly the same as that of human migration.Rajabi-Mahamet al (2008) studied mice DNA from Iran up to Europe. They found that after reaching the Fertile Crescent mice expansion toward Europe and Asia Minor took at leasttwo routes, tentatively termed the Mediterranean and the Bosphorus/Black Sea routes.They found that another domesticated animal goat also followed the same routes almostthe same time about 12,000 years back.Thus goat and mice migrated along with expanding farming OUT OF INDIA into central asia and europe. Back to Human genetics, Hg R1a1-M17 lineage appears to have come to Europe, via the ancestors of the present day Slavs, from the Indian sub-continent. Genetic evidence does not support a large scale invasion of India from Europe during the prehistoric times, since no evidence of Hg R1*-M173, Hg I-M170 or of Hg N3-?A? has been found in India, although these Haplogroups are very frequent in Europe (Rosser et al. 2000, Sengupta et al. 2006.Furthermore, their data shows that the highest Frequency of what could be the oldest c-haplotype, namely c-Ht 17 of the M17 lineage, occurs in India, where it was observed in 10.5% of the males or ~57.5 million men. In Eastern Europe, it occurs at 9.5% or in ~12 million males, in the Balkans at 3.8%, in Western Europe at 0.3% and Middle East at 2.5%. Another haplotype, c-Ht 19 has been found almost exclusively in the Balkans, Eastern Europe and India. Here again India represents 8%, Eastern Europe 4%, Balkans 0.5% and Western Europe 0.2% of the male population with this haplotype. The percentages and absolute numbers suggest the direction of the gene flow. These statistics are also an indication that the gene flow is from India to Europe.It should be stressed that, despite the theories of Aryan home in Germany or Germanic lands (Ghosh 1951: 213-214), Hg I has not been detected in India. This would rule out Europe as the home of the Aryans, but confirm to India.
.It is signifcant, that Hg N3 and also Hg I did not reach Iran and India. This can be taken as another indication that the migration(s) carrying Hg R1a1 did not originate in Europe. A northern, central or east European origin of Hg R1a1, and the subsequent expansions and migrations would have picked up both Hg I and Hg N3 chromosomes and the linguistic afnities with Sanskrit and taken them eastward in the direction of India. However, high frequency of Hg R1a1 chromosomes, and the high linguistic afnities with Sanskrit are primarily common only to Slavic and Indo-Aryan populations. This is not the case for other European or eastern European genetic markers such as Hg I and Hg N3, since Hg I and Hg N3 are absent from India. Also the virtual absence o? Hg K* also rules out central Asia or Siberia as the homeland of the Indo-Aryans.As mentioned before, Hg N3, which is widely distributed among Finno-Ugric populations where the high frequencies occur, is also frequent in the Slavic populations surrounding the Baltic and Black Sea, where the largest absolute numbers occur. Tis marker, which is considered to be as old as R1a1, has not reached the Balkans, nor has it migrated to India (Skulj 2007). Based on the above mentioned genetic markers, one has to conclude that Hg R1a1 chromosomes came from India and reached the Balkans, before Hg N3 expanded between the Baltic and the Black Seas. Also the expansion of Hg I from the Balkans was impeded and did not reach India. All of this is in agreement and supports Out of India Theory (OIT) of the ‘satem’ branch o? the Indo-European language ?amily. Furthermore, the domestication of cattle in the Indus valley and no indication o? domestication of European aurochs (Edwards et al. 2007) Further support the OIT. Another haplotype, c-Ht 19 has been found almost exclusively in the Balkans, Eastern Europe and India. Here again India represents 8%, Eastern Europe 4%, Balkans 0.5% and Western Europe 0.2% of the male population with this haplotype. Te percentages and absolute numbers suggest the direction of the gene flow. These statistics are also an indication that the gene ?ow appears to be from India to Europe. Using Alinei’s ‘lexical self-dating’, there is evidence that a common agro-pastoral origin of Sanskrit ‘gopati’, ‘gospati’ and Slavic ‘gospod’, ‘gospodin’ meaning lord/master/gentleman occurred more than 8,000 years ago (Skulj et al. 2006). Therefore, the people who invented this terminology must have had their origin prior to that period of human history when the domesticated cattle were already part of the wealth of certain individuals.The domestication of cattle and sheep on the Indian sub-continent, the absence of Hg I and Hg N3 in India and their high frequencies in Europe are indicators that the gene flow was not from Europe to India, but from India to Europe along with the precursor of the ‘satem’ Indo-European languages.
.Recent archaeo-linguistic studies point out that the Indo-European languages originated at a place which had agriculture. Evidence further indicates that this place was no farther thanthe place of evolution of Austro-Asiatic languages and Dravidian languages, because words from these latter languages are found in the oldest core vocabulary of the Proto-Indo-European language. Coupled with this, recent archaeo-genetic studies of rice, barley, cow,pig, buffalo and mice prove their origin in India. This supports an Indian origin of farming,and subsequent spread to the east and west of India. These studies reject the theory of Aryan arrival to India from Central Asia (or West Asia), Dravidian arrival from the West Asiaand Austro-Asiatic arrival from the Southeast Asia (or China). Finally human DNA studies rule out any migration to India from Central Asia or West Asia. On the other hand there is DNA evidence of human migration from India to Central Asia, Europe, West Asia andSoutheast Asia. So seraphicsongs, All indians come from two ancestoral groups, the north indian orginated from the south indians, then they formed back into one population. Idiots like you keep carrying on the racism embedded into colonial racist education. Indian migrated OUT, and science proves that NOT RSS, you will find that what you consider a normal position on the subject is in fact HEAVILY laced with pro western colonial education which YOU have recieved. The british looted India, from the 1st to the 11th century India was the richest land on earth, from the 11th to the 1700?s india had a gdp of 25% of the world in 1953 it was less than 3%. The biggest transfer of wealth was from India to europe. The pro colonial christian western education was enforced onto indian people acting like the long arm of the western world. Teaching a pro western education, which not only twists facts and information but tries to conform that to its western idealogy. The history of the goa inquisitions, the mass famines, mass murder, rape and plunder of india is erased and diluted by the colonial education.One is led to believe that all major University graduates have been largely mouthing Euro-Centric views for far too long a period. No wonder the discovery of Malhar (near Varanasi) which indicates a distinct possibility to demonstrate that Iron was discovered first in India (3800 years back), did not cause any ripple in Indian academia. The meticulous references of almost all original workers and a critical examination of their views make this work extremely important. May be a next generation of scholars will undertake works in archaeology to finally prove many of the issues raised.

]]> By: HTH http://www.chakranews.com/hindu-survival-and-buddhist-disappearance-during-medieval-india/1460/comment-page-1#comment-6117 HTH Thu, 18 Aug 2011 03:58:56 +0000 http://www.chakranews.com/?p=1460#comment-6117 I still support demand to the government of India to resign and hand over power to a true patriot of India and of all mankind! Agree that Islam is NOT religion but merely political-millitary ideology with aim to conquest and enslavement of all humanity – the true army of Satan!

God bless RSS!

Russian Patriots

]]> By: George in Bulgaria http://www.chakranews.com/hindu-survival-and-buddhist-disappearance-during-medieval-india/1460/comment-page-1#comment-6089 George in Bulgaria Mon, 15 Aug 2011 14:17:59 +0000 http://www.chakranews.com/?p=1460#comment-6089 Namasthe. This was such a sad and depressing article, Sandeep – sad and depressing to me because of the monstrous and abominable murders and attempted genocide waged upon India by the barbaric Death Cult of islam for hundres of years. I mean that seriously. islam is NOT a religion but a Death Cult that I would be happy to see obliterated from the face of this earth. There is NO such thing as “moderate” islam – whatever the lies (Taaqiyah) that thier imams or mullahs tell you, they are all the same – conquest and bloody war is their sole aim. To follow the psycholgically depraved ravings of a pedophile lunatic – the so-called prophet of islam who raped Aisha when she was just 9 years old under the thin and “pretend” veil of marriage – shows exactly the mind-set of all muslims. Their attempt to conquer the world goes on and on to this day – it is now covered by the phrase “stealth jihad”… I just hope that both Pakistan and Bangladesh come to thier senses soon to throw the unbearably ugly and depraved yoke of islam from its peoples. I just pray and hope that India continues to fight the most terrible Cult that mankind has seen – the Death Cult of islam. I am British, and yes I am ashamed to say that I was born at the end of the “British Raj” (well, 2 years after I was born in Rawalpindi it entered Pakistan). Now, after many years of reading about the history of India, I can say that I am ashamed, because I realize now that what I was born into (through no fault of mine) was a very false “Empire” built by the British for greed and profit. Isn’t it the same for all colonial powers, though? Even though I led a very sheltered existence for the first 8 years of my life in India (in Delhi, Coimbatore, Ootacamund, the Nilgiri Hills, and Trivandrum) I met many local and different people from the many religions and faiths of India. One thing that struck me was the love that they showed me and my sister, a giving and peaceful love because we were children. I still look back very fondly on my brief stay in India – not because I was part of the Raj, but because of the love that I met at every corner… I will never forget the richness of the different peoples of different faiths… and I will never forget the incredible food that India offers to this world. Curry is still my favourite dish!! I cook a curry at least twice a week in my old age now…
I pray wholeheartedly and often that Hindus, Jains, Sikhs and Buddhists unite strongly against the modern onslaught of islam in India… it would break my heart to see such loving and courageous people succumb to the depravities of the Death Cult of islam. Namsthe.

]]> By: Inderjit http://www.chakranews.com/hindu-survival-and-buddhist-disappearance-during-medieval-india/1460/comment-page-1#comment-6082 Inderjit Mon, 15 Aug 2011 00:05:29 +0000 http://www.chakranews.com/?p=1460#comment-6082 If Hindus do not unite or learn the history of Islam and the plight of native Hindus in Pakistan and Kashmir, then all of India is doomed. It will become Islamic and return of Mughal/Muslim rule which was interrupted by British invasion.

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